WIP: Forged W2: with hamon pics...

[silver_pilate]

Ok, since Patrice said that pictures are mandatory, I'll throw a few up.

Note for those that missed my other thread: This is my first knife to make in over 2 years, and the first I've forged in the new shop. I hadn't picked up the hammer in over 2 years to forge a blade, so I am rusty. Add that to the fact that I was lousy at it before I took a hiatus, and your expectations of my forging prowess should be well tempered. Actually, the forging went fairly well. I got the tip knocked in in record time for me, and the bevels went more smoothly than ever. Here's the rough rough forged blade from a piece of Don's W2 that had been reduced to 1/4" bar stock.

The corners on my anvil are pretty much all shot, so the "plunge" is really just a suggestion at this point and will have to be ground in.

At this point, my skill at forging only allows me to do the forging and then design off of the results . Here is a really rough and fast idea of what I'm shooting for.

After refining the profile just a bit and getting the tang cut out (what?!?...not a forged tang? Not this one), the next step was to take it to the flat disc and get the ricasso flat.

Anyway, I thought I had done a decent job centered the edge during forging. Turns out I was wrong. After getting the ricasso flat and parallel, I took it to the precision ground slab and scribed a center line with a height gauge. The good news is the line was on the edge of the blade as it was forged. The bad news is that the line was WAY over to one side for most of the length of the edge, coming over to the other side towards the tip. No problem, I fixed it and centered it to the line when grinding the bevels. For you pros...any pointers on keeping the edge centered when forging?

Here it is at 60 grit.

120 grit slowly moving the plunge back a bit.

To be continued....

--nathan

 

[silver_pilate]

And here is the blade ground at 220 grit. This is as far as I will take it prior to heat treating.

I still have some refinement to do on the plunges after heat treating, but so far it's coming along fairly smooth. (knocks on wood many times)

Now, I am trying to figure out what block to use for a handle. I have it narrowed down to these two pieces. The top piece is a piece of old growth flamed redwood. The bottom is maple burl. Both are stabilized.

I'm leaning towards the redwood. It has great action.

Anyway, next I will normalize and heat treat. I'm going full monty on this one with clay for a hamon. Not sure what I'm going to use as a guard and spacer at this point. Probably more W2.

Your thoughts are welcome. I haven't completely sold myself on the exact handle shape just yet. It may be a tad long for the blade, but I'm going to cut out some samples out of scrap and see what I think....

--nathan

 

[Brian Ayres]

Nice! I gave up on my first few forged blades after I chased the center line all over the place trying to scribe with a drill bit.
I have made a modified gauge with my granite block and a couple 1-2-3 blocks and went back and saved those early grinding attempts.
I just got an Enco coupon and will get a height gauge this week.

I vote for the Redwood!!

 

[Salem Straub]

Looking good, Nathan. How's it feel getting back into the swing of things?

As for edge centering, I just try to take a finishing heat or two to adjust these things- sighting hard down the blade from both ends, then checking again on a flat surface after the last thermal cycle when cool, before shutting off the forge and grinding.

 

[Salem Straub]

Double post.

 

[silver_pilate]

Thanks, Salem. It feels really good. I'm going to try and take advantage of it while I have the time. I did do a couple of lower-temp finashing heats before cycling/normalizing to flatten and staighten things, and I tried to sight the edge. Guess my vision is crooked .

Part of it is that I'm still learning exactly where and how to hit the steel to get the exact correction you want. So let's just put arbitrary labels for discussion sake. So say that when sighting down the blade, your edge is off centere towards side "A". How exactly do you go about correcting that? I think what I did was place the knife with side "B" against the anvil, tilting the edge up off the anvil slightly, and then hitting side "A" with the hammer to try and drive it down. Does that make sense, and is that the way to go about doing it?

Thanks!

--nathan

 

[Salem Straub]

I do it that way, or sometimes I will use the post vise and one of my twisting wrenches to torque the whole blade a little to the side if necessary. You are right, much of the skill in smithing lies just in knowing through practice how and where to hit something to adjust it.

 

[Andy Lewis]

Hey Nathan. Thank you for taking the time to show us your progress. Your earlier knives were all super clean and seriously practical – and just plain elegant. I’m glad to see you producing again!

I am far from a pro, but I can offer you a few tips toward keeping your forged edge centered. One approach is to do whatever you can to both start it that way and finish it that way. Simple and obvious to say that, but warps, twists and centerline offsets have a tendency to amplify if they are not dealt with to some extent during each heat imo.
If I’m working with round stock, early on I carefully hammer the ricasso flats as square and parallel as I can get them, then use these as THE foundational reference throughout the rest of the process. (Familiar idea here on BF – particularly at later stages of a build - thanks much to Mr. Nick Wheeler for his stellar WIPs!) This is a useful idea because it naturally accommodates differing blade designs and parent stock shapes.

So once you can sight your ricasso flats clearly from top and bottom, there are a couple of things that help. First - and obvious again – is to stay off them with the hammer or anvil face. Chasing a moving reference is seriously frustrating and your blade may end up thinner than you intended. Second, let it cool, and slow down for a good look at the black version every few heats. Ed Caffrey MS once described a key to grinding well as looking twice as much as you actually make sparks. He’s a smart guy – there’s a parallel here in forging too I think. Third, use soapstone, or a swipe of the side grinder, to clearly mark/see your future edge flat from point to heel. You can’t correct what you can’t see. From there some guys, me included, just lay the thing on a “flat” anvil face and guess from there as we work through it. As you noticed though, not so accurate depending on your blade size, the tapers, and flatness of your anvil’s ‘reference surface’. Some guys grab the thing with a couple of identical big mechanics pliers to sight them for twist between the contact points (e.g. ricasso and either point or tang). During the lower finishing heats now and then, I clamp my forging between two oversized pieces of ¼” barstock paying particular attention to the most obviously needed centerline adjustments from tip to tang. I guess clamping up is easier for me to reckon because its steady each time and repeatable over time plus I can pick it up and carry it off – say outside in better light – to look for gaps and offsets at different angles. Finally doing this forces you to deal with cups and twists over the entire length of the forging at once. Really frustrating to gently get everything aligned from say the shoulders forward through the taper only to have to go back to a high heat to fix a tang twist or cup.

For near final form adjustments, I use a ‘precision-tuned’ 2” branch of Hackberry on a flat-faced stump to do any final adjustments without trashing my surfaces.

As always, a good series of normalizing heats, where at least one exceeds critical, will reset grain structure and balanced stresses in the cooled steel. That should help keep your centerline in place through finishing.

I expect you know most of this already, but hope something here helps. Looking forward to seeing the finished knife!
-AWL-

 

[silver_pilate]

Update. I did some final pre-heat treat grinding and peeping, and I just put the knife in the oven for a couple of tempers.

First thing I did tonight was normalize. After the blade was back to room temperature, I went to 220 on the belt grinder and cleaned up the bevels, and I went to the disc at 220 to clean up the ricasso.

Here is where I have to give props to my friend, Nick Wheeler. Every time I got in a hurry and thought to myself, "I'll deal with that after heat treating," I thought of Nick. What would Nick do? And I'm serious, by the way. As I was washing up the blade in prep for clay, I noticed a facet on each side of the ricasso; it wasn't dead-flat. This is where I almost just went ahead to the clay thinking I could deal with it after heat treating, but I made myself turn around and go back to the grinder. "Don't settle." It's a habit I'm trying to get into. So I spent a few extra minutes at 220 on the disc, and I got both ricassos dead-nuts flat. After all, it's a heck of a lot easier to do now than after the thing has been hardened.

So after getting everything nice and clean and flat, I washed the blade and applied a clay wash. I sped the drying a tad with handheld butane "torch", and I applied the clay nice and thin with a few ashi lines. In the past I've had issues with the hamon being pushed too close to the edge. This time I tried to keep my clay thin and well away from the edge. I didn't snap a picture, but after it was dried with the help of the torch, I popped it into the Evenheat which had been sitting at temperature for a few hours now. I did a 10 minute soak to make sure the clay and blade where up to 1450F, and then I quenched in 90F Park's 50. In with agitation for a long three count, out for a quick three count, and back in until it was cool.

I was able to break the clay off nicely after the blade was cool, and I washed the blade and popped it in the oven at 450F. I'll do two 1 hour tempers at 450. Here's the blade right before it went in to temper.

You never can tell what's going on with pictures like this, but I can't wait to see what it comes up with. I'll do the finish grinding tomorrow, and may even get to some hand sanding to see what there is.

--nathan

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Nathan, I think the handle proportions are very good. Maybe just a little more drop around that back hump.
I would go with the maple myself. Keep the redwood for a Damascus blade with similar grain maybe?

Thanks for sharing and looking forward to more pics.

 

[Fletch Helical]

Nathan, good to see you back in the swing of things I've always admired your work. Looking forward to seeing this get finished.

 

[Salem Straub]

I'm not used to people interrupting quenching with W2 into Parks 50. I'm wondering what the reason is for your approach? Looks like probably a successful and active hamon, though.

 

[silver_pilate]

Salem, the only reason I tried it was for more activity in the hamon. I've done several W2 blades in this manner, and the hammon activity is decent. The biggest problem I've had is having the hamon creep too far down towards the edge. Part of this is probably the thickness/proximity of the clay, and part is probably the interrupted quench slowing the cooling too much at the edge. I tried to solve this with a bit less clay further up the blade and a tad bit longer in the oil before a short interruption so that the blade doesn't auto-temper too for down from the clay.

Probably with this technique I'm just chasing skunks in the brush when they're standing right out in the open. I don't believe I'm gaining anything other than *maybe* a bit more activity in the hamon, but from the testing I've done, I don't think I'm giving up anything at the edge either (as long as the hamon is not infringing too close to the edge).

All that said, I know from reading some of Don's posts that he doesn't feel that an interrupted quench is necessary when using Parks 50 with his W2, and you can't argue with his results. I'll see what this one is doing and go from there.

--nathan

 

[tim37a]

Nathan,
Good looking blade and hamon. I vote for the redwood. Why is the guard tilted slightly toward the butt?
Tim

 

[silver_pilate]

Thanks, Tim. We'll see how the hamon turns out hopefully tonight. As for the guard being tilted, what do you mean? If you are referring to the drawings, those are just free-hand sketches with no precision. I was just trying to get an idea of what looks right, and the proportions aren't exact. Also, the drawing in the picture with the handle blocks has been cut to seperate the handle and blade; they're just sitting next to each other in the picture, and part of the guard drawing is curled up from the counter, throwing off its alignment. If you are referring to the shoulders of the ricasso, I have some work to do there. I left the ricasso purposefully long and the tank purposefully thick so I could grind/file to final dimnesions after heat treating.

When finish grinding, I will also probably make the plunge a little more upright to better match the guard which will be at a right angle to the ricasso.

--nathan

 

[silver_pilate]

Tonight I have cleaned up the flats and bevels, fixed some grinding errors, hand sanded to a really dirty 400, fixed some more grinding errors, re-hand sanded to somewhat dirty 400, and that about covers it.

Funny thing how some flaws in your grinding show up only after you've put some sweat into hand-sanding the blade. :grumpy: I had a little bit of a 2" line show up as the finish got flatter and finer while sanding (on my strong grinding side, nonetheless). Also, there was a fairly glaring mismatch in the plunges that for some reason unknown to me, I didn't see until I have the knife at a 400 grind hand finish. So I went back to the grinder and fixed those issues and started over on the sanding. At this point, the 400 grit hand finish is a quick and dirty finish to make sure all grinding scratches have been removed (though I still have a few to work on in the plunge area). I'll continue hand-sanding, getting the ricasso and flats a bit finer, and then I'll do a quick etch and polish to see roughly what I've got. There is a good hamon there, and there looks to be a lot of activity going on. There does seem to be one tiny little ball of cloud that is closer to the edge than I wanted, but far enough from the edge of the blade not to matter. If I decide to keep the heat treat as is, I'll even up my ricasso shoulders and finalize the position of the guard. Once my Bruce Bump carbide file guide comes in thumbup, I'll get the shoulders filed in and flat. Then I'll start work on the guard and handle.

The majority of the activity in the hamon appears to be about mid-way down the blade continuing to the tip. I'm curious to see how it looks polished out.

I did have a chance to refine the handle shape a bit on paper. I dropped the back end just a tad as Patrice suggested and slightly increased the butt swell. Also, due to the shape of the planned handle now, my wood selection was made for me. The redwood wasn't quite wide enough, so I'm going to use the maple burl.
Again, this is a rough drawing to give me an idea, and the guard, blade, and handle are all separate pieces of quickly cut-out paper that aren't lined up that great. I do look forward to any comments you guys have on the handle shape or how I can improve it.

--nathan

 

[WilliamWoods]

Subscribed! God I love hamons.

 

[Leethal Cutlery]

Lookin good brother!! I've read somewhere that a hamon will drop or raise on the blade depending on the temp at the quench being too hot or not hot enough and finding the sweet spot temp wise will solve a hamon running down on you. Just my 2 cents. Love your work so far. Can't wait to see it finished.

 

[tim37a]

Hi Nathan,
I was referring to an early sketch. The blade is really shapeing up.
Tim

 

[silver_pilate]

Alright, I'm happy with this.

Yesterday, I took the ricasso closer to final dimensions and did a bit of quick practice shaping for the handle. I also cut the steel for the guard which I am changing from the double quillon guard in the drawing to a single quillon guard. I feel it just fits the design better. Tonight, I torch-tempered the tang to allow for easier filing for guard fit and for drilling the pin hole. Then, I continued the hand-sanding process. I am still waiting on my new file guide before I do guard fit, but I went ahead and continued hand-sanding so that I have less to do after filing the shoulders and fitting the guard. I took one side up to somewhat clean 1000 grit. The other side, I left at 400 for now. After getting to 1000 on one side, I decided to go ahead and do an etch and see what's hiding in the blade. I etched in 4:1 H2O/FeCl3 for a slow count to 25. Then I neutralized and oiled the blade. My quick hamon polish involves securing a folded up blue shop paper towel around one of my sanding sticks, soaking it with WD40, and then scraping some red rouge onto the towel and working it in. The WD40 breaks down the binding agent and allows the rouge to disperse into the towel a bit. From there, it's just a quick rub to remove some of the oxides from the etch, and here is what I see.

Here is the side sanded to 1000 grit etched/polished:

Here is the side sanded to 400 grit etched/polished:

I think I'll keep it. It reminds me a bit of breaking waves. I'm now approaching the weakest area of my knife-making skills: contoured guard/handle shaping. The knives I've made for years apart from a few have been slab-handled full tangs. I have been heavily reviewing Lorien and Nick's Stuck in the Metal thread, and if Nick doesn't mind, I plan on trying to roughly replicate his process in handle/guard shaping. I'm going to take my time and get it done to the best of my skill set. I'm just hoping it doesn't turn out too newbish .

--nathan