Wish GEC and Case Used Modern Steel

I'm happy with the 1095 for pocket knife duty. I use regular kitchen knives for food prep and eating at home, so stainless or carbon pocket knives don't enter the kitchen. Not sure I understand the using pocket knives for food prep at home.
 
I use carbon steel kitchen knives for food prep. I've noticed a taste eating an apple with a pocket knife but I've never noticed a taste slicing up plates of vegies with a carbon steel kitchen knife. Dunno why.

The steel thing is all relative. Guys I know think I'm picky about steel since I know terms like 12c27, 440A (B,C), etc.. Lottsa people who love supersteel might rate me differently. Whatever works for what you do is good. Everyone has their own criteria to meet.
 
This topic, ie: "I wish GEC would use modern supersteels ", has been covered several times before. I would suggest that the OP does not "get" the GEC business model or mission statement.
 
i'm with cory, wish more knive makers wood produce carbon steel knives, very hard to find a knife that suits my preferences in a decent price range. i was like you (jswr450) when i started, always in search for the better steel, the better charakteristics, thought the knifemakers would make theirv choices out of economical reasons. until i got deeper into the subject and learned a lot about steel. in german theres a book called "messerklingen und stahl-technologische betrachtung von messerschneiden" (knife blades and steel-technological examination of knife blades) by roman landes which opened my eyes. 1095 may be old but not old-fashioned, its a very good steel thats why it has been there that long. i would even go so far to call it more premium than D2, 440C, 420HC etc, just would consider powder-metallurgical steel more premium when we talk about edge retention and ability to take a fine edge. but even those are not practical, for what a pocket knife when i need special tools and much time to resharpen? for what much hardness and edge retention when the blade breakes as soon as i "abuse" (slip, whatever, you cant or you dont want to control your movement that exactly) so which i have to baby? that contradicts to the sense of a pocket cutting tool. jm2c
 
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willgoy said:
On a pocket-knife, I really cannot understand the hoo-har about 'super' or 'better' steels. Better for what exactly?? I wonder what kind of day in day out tasks people who want the 'super' or newer steels are planning on subjecting their knives to?? A working pocket-knife should be easy enough to resharpen without complex or elaborate devices, otherwise the whole point of having a pocket knife for carry, is lost. Newer harder steels will be more complex to manufacture, much more problematic to resharpen and a lot more expensive. Knives cost enough already, thanks.
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I agree with this. I'm comfortable with the status quo overall. Unit cost of making traditional knives (non-customs) is my biggest concern. I have my doubts as to their overall popularity as long as the more traditional steels like 440C, 1095, 420HC, and I suppose D2 remain being used. A company like Canal Street is the more likely candidate to make traditional knives using some of the so called modern steels. I'll leave the modern steel usage to the modern knife makers and I am a customer. If you haven't noticed, it is very easy to spend >$200 on a knife using these steels and I simply don't think there is room in the market for traditionals made using it.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Some of the charm of traditional patterns are the traditional steels used in them all along. 420HC, 440C, and 12C27 are available. Current supersteels are expensive and can be more demanding to work. Do traditional factories want to convert at that expense?
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I think this would be a serious consideration for GEC, being that they literally use antique grinders/equipment.

I am definitely not a steel snob, all I want is GEC to do a run of #68 Bucaroos in 440c. That'd be real fine.

I've always had it in my head that I'll commission a traditional with exactly the materials I want, but idk.
 
Bjoern said:
i'm with cory, wish more knive makers wood produce carbon steel knives, very hard to find a knife that suits my preferences in a decent price range. i was like you (jswr450) when i started, always in search for the better steel, the better charakteristics, thought the knifemakers would make theirv choices out of economical reasons. until i got deeper into the subject and learned a lot about steel. in german theres a book called "messerklingen und stahl-technologische betrachtung von messerschneiden" (knife blades and steel-technological examination of knife blades) by roman landes which opened my eyes. 1095 may be old but not old-fashioned, its a very good steel thats why it has been there that long. i would even go so far to call it more premium than D2, 440C, 420HC etc, just would consider powder-metallurgical steel more premium when we talk about edge retention and ability to take a fine edge. but even those are not practical, for what a pocket knife when i need special tools and much time to resharpen? for what much hardness and edge retention when the blade breakes as soon as i "abuse" (slip, whatever, you cant or you dont want to control your movement that exactly) so which i have to baby? that contradicts to the sense of a pocket cutting tool. jm2c
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I like this post. I'll just say that, for my uses, there is a large price differential between 1095 and a stainless which works as well.
 
As Leghog said it's probably a "solution in search of a problem", but I really like some of the premium steels on my other knifes and not having to worry about rust when camping in damp conditions.

I already own a bunch of Case knifes in CV and stainless, as well as a GEC and a Queen in D2. They are great, and I'm going to buy more. I'm a huge fan of traditional slip joints. When the time comes when I want a modern steel slip joint I'll just have to save up and buy a knife from a custom maker like Todd Davison :).
 
There's not much gained by going to a super steel for most cutting tasks assigned to slipjoints. A properly hardened 1095 blade with good edge geometry is excellent for everyday carry.
 
jswr450 said:
Am I the only one that wishes GEC, Case and the other slip joint makers used more modern steels for their knives? I like Queen's D2 quite a bit, but what about something even more premium?

Maybe I'm wrong and there are already slip joints made from super premium steels from the production knife makers.
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Case/Bose Collaborations might be what you want. Lots of the custom makers use higher end steel.

Personally, I like stuff I can sharpen in the field without having to tote special sharpening contraptions... plus those not so "modern steels" actually can perform well, sharpen well, with good heat treat. I like patina too.
 
Canal Street uses 14-4 CrMo stainless, and Northwoods has used a variety of newer and more costly steels. Staying around or under the $100 mark is difficult, but the older S&M File & Wire knives are very well made and use ATS-34 stainless in that price range, and are highly recommended.
 
Have a look at some of the Canal Street Cutlery offerings. They offer some nice Barlows and Trappers in 440C, D2, and 14-4CrMo.
 
I wish Case would step up their steels to the 440C and 1095 used by Great Eastern. Perhaps it's a philosophical difference or a difference in the heat treat, but Case CV even seems 'soft' compared to the 1095 used for the original Schrade Old Timer knives.

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AG Russell has some traditionals in VG-10.
Canal Street has been mentioned, 440C and D2, and I've been very happy with my recent purchases from them.
If you can find them, those ATS-34 Schatt and Morgan File & Wire knives are outstanding.
 
I think the reason they're called "traditional" relates not only to their looks, but to their steel and how they're made as well. Sure I hate it if I get pepper spots on my knives or neglect one for a while and see rust forming. On the other hand, I love an old knife with years of wear and patina on the blades. Traditional knives out of 1095 are sort of like plants or something; you have to take care of them, at least a little. Call me crazy, but for me there's a soul to knives by a company like GEC made the old-fashioned way, using old-fashioned materials. I think their knives would look and feel different if they were made with new machinery... one reason I find myself rarely carrying a Case/Bose... nicely made but missing that soul, for me at least. I remember telling Bill that his knives were going to look amazing in 30-40 years, after lots of use. For me that's when they're truly finished. Okay, yeah, crazy...

As for using pocket knives in the kitchen; I do it sometimes, even though I have many custom kitchen knives. For me it's just an excuse to use my pocket knife. Also, all my Grandmother's knives were made of carbon steel. Never affected the taste as far as I know; I often wonder if it's not oil residue people are tasting... anyone ever done blind tests?
 
Ramblings from a happy user of CPM154, S30V & D2 bladed traditional knives. (to much coffee this morning)
The premium you pay for a Buck 501 with S30V is $21.50. So there is a premium to pay with the newer steels but I don't believe it is to high for steels like CPM154, S30V & D2. Start getting into steels like M390 and that premium may be higher than the traditional market will bear. I also think that as or if the market demands different steels there will be a maker step in to build them.

For myself, the premium means I won't have as many knives but I'm perfectly happy with that reality. Then again I'm perfectly happy with the fact my traditionals don't have oxidation on the blades and springs.

My question is does a traditional have to have carbon blades and springs to be traditional?
If a traditional has stainless springs does that somehow make it less of a traditional?
If it can have stainless springs then why not stainless blades?

For now Queen, Canal Street & Northwoods have supplied everything I need.

So I really don't care if GEC & Case change their mission statement to suit my wants or needs. They are just not for me. Case has their place in the market as does GEC. Their business models seem to be working just fine for them. Besides GEC makes some make beautiful knives and I enjoy looking at what everyone here has.
 
A trade a few months ago with a fellow forum member allowed me to replace my long lost Buck 500 with a "script" version with a 440C blade. I've owned several 440C knives but this time, I've been using it with a DMT diamond based "credit card" stone.

440C is abrasion resistant enough that I've previously not liked carrying it because it was too much of a hassle to touch it up, but with a diamond based stone, it's a snap. So... now that I'm armed with diamond stones, I can see the case for harder to sharpen steels as a part of my every day life. The 440C Buck holds an edge longer for me than my 12C27 Opinels or any carbon steel knife I've used. It isn't huge. But it's definitely noticeable.

So, how does 440C compare to the modern powder steels? That's a rhetorical question not an actual one. Carbide structure and CARTA test results aren't going to answer the question. The question will be is there a noticeable difference i the feel of the steel to justify more of a cost. I just don't know.

My simplistic mental model is super simple: Fine steel vs toothy steel. Carbon, 420HC, 440A and 12C27 are fine steels. 440C is toothy. The feel different to me when cutting different materials. I trust fine steels when mashing blades in wood more. I'm curious to try 3V, if I could ever afford it.

Among the fine steels, I see no big advantage to carbon steels like 1095 or 1086. The one place I can feel a difference is that at lower Rc levels like in the 56 range, I find carbon steels less burr prone and fine grain stainless in that range more prone to burrs and wire edges. The other difference is that stainless is shinier and thus shows dents more. The 12C27 on my Opinel has really won me over from carbon, but I also like the old Schrade + (440A) and Buck 420HC just fine too. For me, the fine stainless come alive at higher Rc levels.

Last comment... I'm keenly aware of the issue of diminishing returns and the evil flip side, the effect of perceiving differences just because you've paid more. I'm a cyclist and a question that gets debated is, can you really feel the difference between a $25 tire and a $45 tire and between a $45 tire an $85 tire? The answer to this question can't be settled with tests because there's something about performance that comes down to comfort and feel. Knife steel is this way for me. There's something going on with the feel of a knife that numbers don't communicate.
 
roseskunk said:
I think the reason they're called "traditional" relates not only to their looks, but to their steel and how they're made as well. Sure I hate it if I get pepper spots on my knives or neglect one for a while and see rust forming. On the other hand, I love an old knife with years of wear and patina on the blades. Traditional knives out of 1095 are sort of like plants or something; you have to take care of them, at least a little. Call me crazy, but for me there's a soul to knives by a company like GEC made the old-fashioned way, using old-fashioned materials. I think their knives would look and feel different if they were made with new machinery... one reason I find myself rarely carrying a Case/Bose... nicely made but missing that soul, for me at least. I remember telling Bill that his knives were going to look amazing in 30-40 years, after lots of use. For me that's when they're truly finished. Okay, yeah, crazy...

As for using pocket knives in the kitchen; I do it sometimes, even though I have many custom kitchen knives. For me it's just an excuse to use my pocket knife. Also, all my Grandmother's knives were made of carbon steel. Never affected the taste as far as I know; I often wonder if it's not oil residue people are tasting... anyone ever done blind tests?
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When a natural (not forced) patina develops, the taste seems to dissipate, especially after the food has been cooked :)
 
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I like D2 and CV, followed by 1095 then stainless. I think D2 is stain resistant enough.Like Will says it will patina nice. CV with its high chrome content patinas nice too. 1095 takes some care to keep it from running away.
 
Anything not forged from a hunk of scrap iron of unknown composition/quality is a "premium steel".

1095, 420hc = easy to sharpen to razor edge = premium in my book at good price point.

Lack of the latest steel flavor of the month in traditional cutlery = first world problem.
 
I appreciate advances in metallurgy on a theoretical level, but for an admitted light user like myself, I don't think there's much of a practical gain. I only use my knives for things like cutting up food, opening packages, zip-ties, etc. If I'm going to ascend in price, I'd rather it be for things like increased F & F and scale materials. Case CV, GEC 1095, Case Tru-Sharp, those steels work for me and keep costs reasonable. How much would I have to pay for a Sodbuster in 10V and yellow Delrin, and why would I, when I don't think it would do THAT much more for me than the one I paid the price of a couple drinks for in CV?
 
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