WOW Parks#50!!!!!!

Due to the fact that folks on this forum have had to hear endless boring explanations of how and why real quench oils work, with the only real protests coming from people who have yet to try them, I suggested that Sam share his experience that he posted elsewhere. Since the vast majority of people who have actually opened up and tried these products have been overwhelmed by the difference, I thought Sam’s experience would be much more helpful than all the talks about cooling curves, vapor points, thermal extraction, long term stability etc… All he did was share his personal observations of an oil within his shop, most of us are happy to hear of another’s success, I would expect the "top guy" to be secure enough with himself to react the same. But I wouldn’t know for certain since the one thing I do know for certain is that I am not the top guy, I doubt there is any such thing, but I will spend the rest of my career trying to be better than I am today and that is more than enough ambition for mortal man.

Let me peel some of the sugar coating off. I don't expect to see underhardened steel from overheated vegetable oils, I have seen it. Before I got the salts I played with overheated oils, vegetable, petroleum based and even a very short stint with “marquenching” oils (another actual quenching oil). That was something like 15 years ago in my career and the results with steels that would normally work with #50 were abysmal, unless of course all you needed to do was skate a file on the very edge and send it along without looking too close, and I have seen similar elsewhere.

I can’t say I am pissed off, actually I find John’s confident yet careless in-the-face style refreshing as opposed to the common hit and run methods on the net. I appreciate somebody who openly declares their antipathy for me and then sticks to it, but the only thing that ever wins my respect is a mutual appreciation for solid facts in place of base emotion. A little humility always goes a long way as well;).
 
So, does anybody have any idea when Darren Ellis is going to have some #50 in stock? Or perhaps another retail outlet? Anybody have some extra to sell? I'm a little antsy in the pantsy to try this stuff. I used motor oil cut with ATF and some canola for my first knife and I wasn't exactly enamored of the results.

-Gavin

BTW, I LIKE the discussion of cooling curves and pearlite and whatnot but I will say that it's a little more immediate to hear about someone's experience from a less theoretical POV. Especially since I've seen enough of Sam's posts to know he's done it the garage/backyard way too.
 
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Parks #50 is a favorite here and when Darren can get it I would recommend giving it a try, but in the meantime I would say any quick quench oil would give you a new experience over your motor oil, ATF, vegetable oil mix. More than a few others have been suggested on this forum that I think would be pretty good. I would also think that the ATF or the canola by themsleves could offer better curves than the mix.
 
Thanks, Kevin. I can certainly lay my hands on some ATF, but you said, "any quick quench oil"; what other fast quenching oils would you recommend? I don't know about any others except Houghto-Quench K (I think) and I don't know where I'd find that either.
 
I found the parent company of the almighty do-all quenchant here

I also found an email address for the sales dept and sent them this email...

"Hello my name is Jason Carter. I and many other knife makers are interested in purchasing your #50 quenching oil product, We would be interested in purchasing it, If possible, by the gallon. Do you currently*offer any way for individuals to purchase this product? We have seen the metallurgist reports on this product used to quench many of the simple carbon tool steels we knife makers utilize to craft our trade and we have found none better than your Parks #50."

I'll keep everyone posted with what I find out
 
Jason, I don't think you'll get a reply. They quit selling to individuals a couple years ago and even large companies have to jump through hoops to buy from Heatbath now.

Scott McKenzie works for Hough, his email is, SMackenzie@houghtonintl.com

He can tell y'all where to get their oil. He also spends a good bit of time over on Don Fogg's forum. A bunch of good info there too.
 
I suspect that Darren will have more once he squeegees out his the first floor of his house. He is the only guy from our circle that has had any luck getting stuff from Heatbath lately and that has made him a very popular lad.:thumbup:
 
Thanks bikermike. But in light of the fact that the McMaster-Carr quenchants actually cost a little more than the Parks from Darren Ellis, I think I'll wait. Might as well get the real deal and support the little guy at the same time, eh?
 
I think its telling when John is demonised by taking offense to an offensive gesture! Call it a personal pissing match but why run to the rescue of poor Sam when he seems a big enough man to call everyone a jerkoff who uses peanut oil or cooking oils knowing full well who it would incite! Lets be fair here.
 
You guys take smileys WAY to seriously! :(

I in no way directed my comment to anyone in particular especially not John, nor called anyone a jerk off and please if you read my post in the wrong way I apologise. Feel free to do anything you want don't let me ever tell you what to do, I will never insult anyone for any choice they make. But no one can deny they are better, the right tool for the right job designed to cool steel at specific known rates, not cook food or lubricate an engine. I in no way have ANY facts to back up this statement, but there are others who do, so there is no denying or debating that.
 
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Unfortunately Sam, thats the risk thats taken when in an online forum. People dont see your face or know what your intentions are. I feel the "jerk it" smiley is inappropriate altogether, but thats my opinion!

I would be willing to bet this whole mess could have been avoided if that smiley wasnt used. But I pass no judgement, just offering a suggestion.
 
I started off quenching in whatever I could find. I was experimenting with knifemaking and determining if I'd want to pursue this as a hobby. I tried bacon fat, mineral oil, ATF and a mix. Definately hit or miss with all the above. If someone is playing around with knifemaking and doing their own heat treat, I wouldn't recommend buying 5 gallons of a specific quench oil.

Now I am seriously pursuing knifemaking as a hobby and part-time business. One of my serious decisions was to work with a specific steel (1084 and 1095) and method of heat treat. My next major purchase will be a specific quench oil, hopefully Parks #50.
 
It seems to me that if (as seems to be the case) many, if not most, knifemakers at a professional level advocate the use of known, predictable steels (particularly when learning, so you know what the steel SHOULD do) - as opposed to junkyard scrap which is unpredictable at best, then it absolutely makes sense to learn to HT with a known and reliable quenchant FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. I am just starting out and I've heat treated all of one knife and the results were acceptable but I also used part of a leaf spring and a godawful mix to quench. Now, if I've decided I want the best results from my abilities, it seems to me that I should use a predictable, reliable, proven quench for my predictable, reliable, proven 1095 and 1084. That's not a shot at you, Joe, I just happen to have made the same steel selection. I am also not saying that it's jerking off to experiment with other quenchants but I do know my skill level isn't up to that. I want to eliminate as many unknown variables as possible so that I can improve MYSELF before I try improving the PROCESS.
 
J.S. Carter said:
I found the parent company of the almighty do-all quenchant here

I also found an email address for the sales dept and sent them this email...

"Hello my name is Jason Carter. I and many other knife makers are interested in purchasing your #50 quenching oil product, We would be interested in purchasing it, If possible, by the gallon. Do you currently*offer any way for individuals to purchase this product? We have seen the metallurgist reports on this product used to quench many of the simple carbon tool steels we knife makers utilize to craft our trade and we have found none better than your Parks #50."

I'll keep everyone posted with what I find out
Click to expand...

I have been using #50 for 15 years(at least) I bought three 5 gallon pails of it direct from parks here in MI. Last year I went to order some more and I found out they wouldn't sell it to me, you can imagine my frustration. I not only talked to a sales rep, but several other higher up yahoos. I left so many pieces of my mind with them, I couldn't think for two days.

Sam,
I am glad to hear of your satisfaction at using this product. It really does make a big difference. (I look forward to seeing you again at ashokan)
Del
 
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The emoticon is a “jerk it”, not a jerk off, if you don’t believe me just put your little cursor over it and see for yourself, and I didn’t see anywhere where Sam called anyone a jerk off. Instead I gathered he felt his new quenching results made him feel like he was just jerking it previously. Perhaps I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt but I interpreted it as self deprecating humor. On the other hand in another post every individual who decides to use an actual quenching oil were, in an odd bit of irony, referred to as idiots who cannot learn techniques.

Still to date I have encountered no other topic that will inflame people with hostility more than the quenchant debate, it will always mystify me. I myself tend to lose patience with it because like religion or politics, logic doesn’t seem to apply and when people can’t deal with things logically I have a hard time dealing with them.

Pure facts and logic- the task at hand is to effectively and consistently quench steel and your choices are:

Motor oil (designed to lubricate engines)
Vegetable oil (sold for use in frying foods)
ATF (designed to run automatic automobile transmissions)
Rendered animal fats (possible use in cooking, but most often discarded as waste.)
Quenching oil (designed specifically to quench steel)

Which one is the logical choice?

I have never called anybody names for not using the logical choice but I have been called a few for suggesting that a product called quenching oil may be best suited for quenching. I understand the reasons people go with alternatives, I have been there myself, but I may never understand the anger that the logical suggestion can incite.

When forced to, I will suggest things like ATF and other light oils, but the reason I prefer not to is that it seems to be a slippery slope and in no time folks are talking all kinds of goops and glops and we get into things that are “good enough”. If your willing to go with “good enough” on heat treating where does the line get drawn? Eventually you can ask the question recently posed in another thread “why bother with heat treat at all”, the blade can be just as pretty, and fine pearlite will be substantially harder than most materials you may wish to cut. There seems to be two philosophies at odds here- “good enough is good enough” vs. “if there is an ounce of improvement to be had, I gotta have it.” I am not saying that one is better than the other but it does give some insight into why some feel slighted while others are perceived as elitist.


P.S. Parks decision not to sell to little guys appears quite final, continued inquiries does not appear to change that and I would implore folks not to intentionally badger them too much for fear they will become even more draconian and folks still getting it will then feel the pinch. I still have my sources and Darren is still getting what we need, let’s not give them reason to look any closer at the existing supply lines.
 
Thanks Del, I am not much in the loop, but am still confused as to why they choose not to sell in small quantities anymore. But hopefully Darren will still be able to get some and share with everyone.

Let me add a bit more info to my original statement. Parks#50 is a fast oil! Meaning it was designed for the common shallow hardening steels like 10XX and W1 and W2, it will be too fast for deep hardening steels like O1, and I think you would risk cracking deep hardening steels! Right tool for the right job, a slower oil for deep hardening steels faster for shallow hardening steels.
 
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