You can't do THAT with a ZT...

[bodog]

I'm surprised people haven't burned themselves out already on this thread. It shows just how much people care about a tool that cuts things. I don't know what to make of that but screw it.

I'm not usually into pimping knives but that rainbow anodized one is pretty nice looking. I wonder how it handles spine whacks.

 

[pinnah]

I also have a Gerber Paraframe. I used the knife for a year straight, it never closed on me, never failed to cut stuff, and came in very handy as a toolbox knife since then. It was worth the $20 I bought it for. This was about 10 years ago, still have the knife and the lock up is still at 50%, I will try and find it.

When I got my first Opinel (in a trade for bike parts) and being a Buck 110 tottin' 'Murican, I had no clue how to operate the knife, nor, more importantly how to maintain and tune the lock ring. I've since learned that French Boy Scouts earn a merit badge in Opinel usage, but I digress.

With the kind tutelage by some kind Bladeforum members in the Traditional forum, some of whom worked in the trades and used their Opinel there, I learned some of the basics.

With the caveat that one should never, ever, ever rely on the Opinel lock ring to prevent the knife from closing under hard closing force, I've found the Opinel to be the most durable knife I've ever used. I've never gotten one to develop blade play in any way. Gave one to a buddy who works as a GC and told him to "break it if you can". 2 years later, he returned it with a broken blade, having work hardened the blade by opening paint cans with it.

For giggles, I sent another one out for a Bladeforums pass-around. I trolled for guys in the trades to try to get them to bust the joint. Eventually a guy in Kansas was able to bust the tip off by using it to drill out plastic pipe in sub-zero weather. The joint and lock and handle were still fine.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1097460-Opinel-Pass-Around-amp-Walk-About

I'm not pushing an Opinel over a ZT. Like shoes, underwear and beer, our choices in knives need to make us happy and that's just way too personal to push on somebody.

99.9% of a folding knife not closing on you is knowing how to handle a folding knife. Beyond this, we're just talking stuff that makes us happy.

 

[LadyEarth]

I'm surprised people haven't burned themselves out already on this thread. It shows just how much people care about a tool that cuts things. I don't know what to make of that but screw it.

I'm not usually into pimping knives but that rainbow anodized one is pretty nice looking. I wonder how it handles spine whacks.

Quiet and I and everyone else can agree on this one together: we LOVE our knives. Passion out our arse for all our sharp toothed kids!

 

[Quiet]

What would accept as proof?? You seem to say nothing is "proof enough". I am not being snarky, I really would like to know so we can see eye to eye.

Actually, proof could be easily provided, but admittedly, probably not by anyone here. Actual proof could possibly take the form of say, the number of knives returned to KAI for defective locks. That would be a pretty clear picture of just how well, or poorly made their knives are. Would you agree? But of course, KAI isn't going to ever provide that, and understandably so. But hey, see below:

As many people have pointed out, Youtube members who own ZT knives make up a small portion of all owners of ZT knives. Youtube members who choose to make videos about their experiences make up an even smaller portion of all owners of ZT knives.

No objective claims are necessarily being made. But either you can believe that the number of demonstrated failures in this small sample size is relevant to all knives in circulation, or you can believe that they're all people tampering with $200+ knives to prove a nonexistent point, while being so involved with their deception that they also making videos in praise of ZT. And doing all this for free and without any benefit to them.

If that's the case, then I have zero issue. Debate and/or argument is over for me immediately. I don't have an issue with folks having their own opinion. I took multiple comments you made in this thread to be objective statements coming from you. If I am in error on that, then I own that 100% and we can move forward.

One thing I will say, you'll notice that I'm not posting up links to any Youtube videos in support of MY position. I myself don't have production numbers or the number of knives returned with broken locks, or anything like that. I just know I like ZT knives. I, and others, have beat on them, and they've held up. It seems like a pretty good product. And honestly, I don't understand the targeting of ZT on this board anyway. They're as good as any other major brand. Cold Steel bashing in that other thread, ok, yes I know I was guilty of that, because the owner of the company in his quasi-military uniform has always cracked me up. What can I say?

But hey listen, can we agree that sometimes, it's good to cool out and just post up some cool pics of knives?

 

[LadyEarth]

Here is my (fun) "evidence" that I don't use my ZT knives like fixed blades

 

[kniferbro]

Sure thing m8

Love this angle

Love the light I got on this one!

 

[PURPLEDC]

Yes, you are. If videos are unreliable, then they're unreliable and video of someone pushing on a lockbar means nothing (for whatever reason). When the video supports your thesis it must be believed and you state it as fact, when it does not you dismiss it as a possible fake and bring up predisposing factors that we cannot know about. That's not a consistent position.

LOL, if you want to believe that thats fine. But I am not trying to change your opinion as I could not care less about it. If i can physically see what is causing a malfunction in a knife via a video then I feel it doesnt require much more explanation than that especially if the person who made said video makes excuses and bails when called on it. A video of a knife failing and there is no sign of an explanation leaves many variables that cant be accounted for. If I make two videos, both of the same car blowing up but one video actually shows me pooring gas into the car and lighting it on fire and the other does not then only one of those videos is worthwhile to watch as you can actually physically see the reason for the incident taking place eliminating any speculation otherwise. If you cant tell the difference between those two scenarios then you can watch videos of it all day long and you will still be clueless.

 

[pinnah]

My proof is for me alone and it just so happened that many other folks have their own proof that aligns with mine when it comes to ZT disengaging the locks at the lightest pressure. I still love the crap out of my ZT knives and still use them. BUT I love my fingers more. I've had my pinky break because of a poorly made chinese tool (I don't want to post the picture, it was an open wound break, far beyond a knife bite) so that made me very cynical to any flaws (I still give things a chance like my ZT 0550) but none to my ZT 0200 and 0300 that I sold off. (If you want to see my finger wound....I can provide it but not sure if it will break forum rule?)

I am a lot more cautious regarding products that does not do as advertised because of personal experience. The fact that others has experienced the same as me showed me that I'm not alone. I might be few but I'm not alone.

Paul Petzhold, famous climbing guide and one of the founders of NOLS said, if you carry a climbing helmet, you're more likely to climb in the face of rock fall hazards. Steve Barnett, famous ski mountaineer, has said the same thing about ice axes and climbing ropes. Take them and you're more likely to press ahead in the face of danger instead of retreating.

I never pry with folding knife. Never. Period.


I don't care what the lock type is. I don't care who made it. I don't care how many test videos I see. I'm not going to trust a folding knife to not fold.

IMO, once you grok this, nearly all folding knifes become a lot safer. Just use them like they're a slip joint. Really, the only "lock failure" I worry about is the "rebound" or "inertia" failure, when you cut through a branch and the tension of the cutting force releases suddenly. This can sometimes cause the blade to shoot forward like an arrow.

 

[TBL]

This thread has been a good read so far. Stabby, you're one of the few Canadians that are ok in my book.



All the other Canadians I know ride bikes, wear ties and try to teach me about the Bible.



Or is that Mormons?? I'm so confused

I stop posting as much and you've already forgot about me tisk tisk tisk.

I may just have to show up in your neck of the woods with a tie an bible! (and some hookers and coke.... )

 

[Quiet]

My proof is for me alone and it just so happened that many other folks have their own proof that aligns with mine when it comes to ZT disengaging the locks at the lightest pressure. I still love the crap out of my ZT knives and still use them. BUT I love my fingers more. I've had my pinky break because of a poorly made chinese tool (I don't want to post the picture, it was an open wound break, far beyond a knife bite) so that made me very cynical to any flaws (I still give things a chance like my ZT 0550) but none to my ZT 0200 and 0300 that I sold off. (If you want to see my finger wound....I can provide it but not sure if it will break forum rule?)

I am a lot more cautious regarding products that does not do as advertised because of personal experience. The fact that others has experienced the same as me showed me that I'm not alone. I might be few but I'm not alone.

I would uh...I'll pass on the pics, and I'm sorry it happened.

I am also not discounting your personal experience. It runs counter to my own (I haven't ever had a ZT framelock fail on me), but it's ok. I will never sit here and say that KAI builds a perfect product. I don't think anyone on this Board would. Well, no one being serious anyway. I think that every manufacturer of every kind of good inevitably has a bad day. I just haven't ever been bit by my ZTs...actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had a lock fail on me on any of the knives I've ever used hard. Cutting through thick cardboard, prying, scraping, and so on. I will say that I don't baton or spinewack my folders. Maybe doing that would cause failures, but in my opinion personally, I would attribute that failure to abuse of the knife versus a defect in the design. Speaking of which, I found a pic I have of my 0551:

 

[LadyEarth]

Paul Petzhold, famous climbing guide and one of the founders of NOLS said, if you carry a climbing helmet, you're more likely to climb in the face of rock fall hazards. Steve Barnett, famous ski mountaineer, has said the same thing about ice axes and climbing ropes. Take them and you're more likely to press ahead in the face of danger instead of retreating.

I never pry with folding knife. Never. Period.


I don't care what the lock type is. I don't care who made it. I don't care how many test videos I see. I'm not going to trust a folding knife to not fold.

IMO, once you grok this, nearly all folding knifes become a lot safer. Just use them like they're a slip joint. Really, the only "lock failure" I worry about is the "rebound" or "inertia" failure, when you cut through a branch and the tension of the cutting force releases suddenly. This can sometimes cause the blade to shoot forward like an arrow.

That is what I do, I clear trails, bushes, roots, etc. I needed a knife that has a higher chance of not disengaging the lock on me and still do heavy work. And no, I don't pry with my knife unless critically need to. But I still want the knife to stay locked long enough for the job to get done. I've been around knives since I was 3 or so years old. I still have my first knife that my father gave me. I have scars from childhood to show that I learned my lessons from it early on. So I am very aware of the strength and weakness of my tools overall.

But the disengaging of the 0200 and 0300 under so light a pressure (and having the 300 close on me fully while wearing heavy duty leather gloves) unnerved me so I got rid of it. That is for MY safety, my opinion of what I think is safety for my own hands. The fact that others experienced the same reassured me that I'm not alone, that my experience was not a one time fluke, regardless on how many other folks experienced it.

That was my point. I'm well aware of the risks. I'm trained in Wilderness First Responder so I know and seen injuries. By removing the 0300 and 0200 out of my EDC trail rotation, I reduced the risks of getting cut or fingers amputated under worst case scenarios.

By speaking out, I am only verifying that those videos and other folks opinions/experiences had some merits. That is all.

 

[LadyEarth]

I would uh...I'll pass on the pics, and I'm sorry it happened.

I am also not discounting your personal experience. It runs counter to my own (I haven't ever had a ZT framelock fail on me), but it's ok. I will never sit here and say that KAI builds a perfect product. I don't think anyone on this Board would. Well, no one being serious anyway. I think that every manufacturer of every kind of good inevitably has a bad day. I just haven't ever been bit by my ZTs...actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had a lock fail on me on any of the knives I've ever used hard. Cutting through thick cardboard, prying, scraping, and so on. I will say that I don't baton or spinewack my folders. Maybe doing that would cause failures, but in my opinion personally, I would attribute that failure to abuse of the knife versus a defect in the design. Speaking of which, I found a pic I have of my 0551:

Star Trek fan!

You should "upgrade" your scales.
Err that is odd...can't find star trek knife scales on Google.

 

[Quiet]

That is what I do, I clear trails, bushes, roots, etc. I needed a knife that has a higher chance of not disengaging the lock on me and still do heavy work. And no, I don't pry with my knife unless critically need to. But I still want the knife to stay locked long enough for the job to get done. I've been around knives since I was 3 or so years old. I still have my first knife that my father gave me. I have scars from childhood to show that I learned my lessons from it early on. So I am very aware of the strength and weakness of my tools overall.

But the disengaging of the 0200 and 0300 under so light a pressure (and having the 300 close on me fully while wearing heavy duty leather gloves) unnerved me so I got rid of it. That is for MY safety, my opinion of what I think is safety for my own hands. The fact that others experienced the same reassured me that I'm not alone, that my experience was not a one time fluke, regardless on how many other folks experienced it.

That was my point. I'm well aware of the risks. I'm trained in Wilderness First Responder so I know and seen injuries. By removing the 0300 and 0200 out of my EDC trail rotation, I reduced the risks of getting cut or fingers amputated under worst case scenarios.

By speaking out, I am only verifying that those videos and other folks opinions/experiences had some merits. That is all.

I understand your point. On those specific knives, I don't have a counterpoint. I'm not trying to suddenly be obsequious here, just being honest: I've not owned a 0200, or 0300. Perhaps those knives had a design flaw? It's certainly possible, and I am well able to admit my own bias. When I speak positively of Zero Tolerance knives, I am generally doing it with the knives I DO have in mind: 0350, 0801, 0561, 0700, 0561, 0562...and I feel like I'm forgetting one or two. I have beat on my 0561, 0562, and my 0801 and those knives yawned and asked me to wake them up when the REAL work showed up. All are well made with positive vault-like lockup. I would have to really abuse these knives in order to see some sort of failure.

I have cleared many a Boy Scout camp in my younger days, and I always used a fixed blade myself. Of course, in those days I had a SAK in my pocket and a Buck 110 on my belt!!

 

[craytab]

In that case, please tell me which ones of these videos you find to be made by "not a liar":
These are just from the first 2 pages of results, by the way. And they only include ones that unlock with light taps or hand pressure. I didn't include the lock failures from harder spinewhacks because as I mentioned earlier, I don't put stock in those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZzfyrxFGmk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhOzWrkegV0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jffqjjm-q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uWb3IgQRno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrO3Dle1Ag&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0QdZnow-w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igZFgYcMy_4

I see you are still at this "youtube is the bastion of evidence" thing.

I see, so objective, factual evidence is now "an impossible standard". Sure thing, guy. :thumbup:

Stab, I'm glad to see your 0561 is capable of hard use tasks. I have done similar things with mine, I love this knife.

Hell no! Objective factual evidence is impossible. Don't you knows nothin?


Great pics and thread stab. My reasoning is that guy wants pictures of your Dad in hopes that he also has gorgeous flowing locks of man hair!

 

[grownstar]

I stop posting as much and you've already forgot about me tisk tisk tisk.

I may just have to show up in your neck of the woods with a tie an bible! (and some hookers and coke.... )

My good friend, how could I possibly forget about you and your ZTs??

Just know, you've got a place to crash if you make it this far down. But the hookers gotta sleep outside LOL!

 

[B.F.U]

The main thing to remember is this: buy what you want. Most popular knives, and most knives by reputable manufacturers, are good knives. Yes, the Cold Steel Triad lock is stronger than the Axis/Power/Frame/whatever-is-on-the-wildsteer locks. Does that mean that people should only buy Cold Steel? Or that they should never buy ZT/Benchmade/Spyderco? Of course not, to both questions. Most popular knives have their own merit, each consumer/enthusiast just has to decide if those merits are worth the purchase price both objectively and in comparison to the comparable options on the market.

Check out my similar thread using the Cold Steel Kudu. I'm putting a link in my signature.

 

[LadyEarth]

I understand your point. On those specific knives, I don't have a counterpoint. I'm not trying to suddenly be obsequious here, just being honest: I've not owned a 0200, or 0300. Perhaps those knives had a design flaw? It's certainly possible, and I am well able to admit my own bias. When I speak positively of Zero Tolerance knives, I am generally doing it with the knives I DO have in mind: 0350, 0801, 0561, 0700, 0561, 0562...and I feel like I'm forgetting one or two. I have beat on my 0561, 0562, and my 0801 and those knives yawned and asked me to wake them up when the REAL work showed up. All are well made with positive vault-like lockup. I would have to really abuse these knives in order to see some sort of failure.

I have cleared many a Boy Scout camp in my younger days, and I always used a fixed blade myself. Of course, in those days I had a SAK in my pocket and a Buck 110 on my belt!!

I've been using Condor bladed tools such as Golok machete and other such (along with traditional tools like shovels, axes, etc). The trail boss said we can carry whatever folding knives we want as long as it can work hard so I chose ZT for that. I'm hoping to use a ZT 0900 and/or 0801 some day on the trail!

I also helped convert few of my co workers to becoming ZT fans
One of them is still a die hard Cold Steel fan so I love teasing him. *Mock evil grin*

 

[poolhustler]

 

[Screwdriver]

Some people REALLY don't understand the point of this thread. But it was fun watching all the panties getting all twisted up.

Just curious...what was the point of this thread?

 

[pinnah]

That is what I do, I clear trails, bushes, roots, etc. I needed a knife that has a higher chance of not disengaging the lock on me and still do heavy work. And no, I don't pry with my knife unless critically need to. But I still want the knife to stay locked long enough for the job to get done. I've been around knives since I was 3 or so years old. I still have my first knife that my father gave me. I have scars from childhood to show that I learned my lessons from it early on. So I am very aware of the strength and weakness of my tools overall.

But the disengaging of the 0200 and 0300 under so light a pressure (and having the 300 close on me fully while wearing heavy duty leather gloves) unnerved me so I got rid of it. That is for MY safety, my opinion of what I think is safety for my own hands. The fact that others experienced the same reassured me that I'm not alone, that my experience was not a one time fluke, regardless on how many other folks experienced it.

That was my point. I'm well aware of the risks. I'm trained in Wilderness First Responder so I know and seen injuries. By removing the 0300 and 0200 out of my EDC trail rotation, I reduced the risks of getting cut or fingers amputated under worst case scenarios.

By speaking out, I am only verifying that those videos and other folks opinions/experiences had some merits. That is all.

LE, we're on the same wavelength, I think.

IMO, there are only 3 lock failures worth worrying about.

The first is a failure to lock at all, due to the mechanism being fouled with dirt or sand or what not. While working with a knife, I expect that the blade won't swing freely if bumped by a branch or tapped by a rock on a back stoke. Typically a good strong slip joint spring provides this amount of resistance to light accidental closing forces, as does the Opinel lock ring. (Obviously, both are easily overcome by strong force.) Having grown up with lock backs (mostly Bucks, plenty of Schrades) I won't trust any lock back in a dirty or sandy environment. They're fine for cleaning game but on the beach? No. In the garden? No. Working on the property? No.

The second failure is the accidental release from normal usage. Typically this happens from some combination of hand pressure on a lock assembly or some aspect of the lock assembly being poorly designed. The Opinel can fail in this mode but does so gracefully with plenty of warning. If the lock ring is too loose (easy to adjust) it can rotate while you are working. This is only a problem if the friction action is badly out of tune (also straight forward to adjust - just peen the pivot) and the blade is free swinging. Normally, if the lock ring moves, the friction still holds the blade securely in place (as Opinels were originally designed to operate). Once you learn to "feel" the position of the lock ring on an Opinel, this sort of failure can't happen without a lot of warning. So long as you can feel the ring in the right position, the knife is safe(r). Anyway, I've handled mid-locks where hand pressure while cutting would press the lock bar release down. I could see how some frame locks could easily release if the hand were to twist or move on the handle just so.

The third failure, as I described above, something like a sling-shot failure where hard cutting forces distort the knife causing the lock to disengage enough that the blade flies forward when the cutting force is released. Opinels can't fail like this so long as the friction is set high (as it should be) and you can feel that lock ring is properly engaged (easy).


In your experience, do the ZTs fail in any of these 3 modes? I'm suspecting that they're susceptible to the first and second, but not so much to the third?