your favorite blade steel on using knives and why you like it?

On those rare occassions when Tom and I agree, there is usually a pretty good reason. CPM's really are super steels. (BG-42 is not in the same league; it's Vanadium content is much lower and powder metallury produces a much finer grain structure) The argument for using stainless in a folder is a good one, especially in a using knife. If you put a fine edge on them, they are not especially difficult to sharpen. Fact is, though, wear resistance and sharpening resistance are mostly the same thing.

At the moment CPM-420V (now called S90V) would sound like your best bet. In October (I'm told) Crucible will announce S30V, which will be a stainless version of CPM-3V. That will be worth taking a good look at.

As to the cryogenics, if you don't know what BG-42 is, you wouldn't know what cryogenics are all about. Factories don't like it because it is very expensive to do, and doesn't lend itself to 1000 blade lots. Many of them use dry ice and alcohol baths (-40 degrees) and call it cryo, but it's not. Cryogenic is about -300 degrees and it meaningfuly improves the structure of the steel.

The usual disclaimers apply...
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Sounds like a good project Tim.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 08-27-2000).]
 
M2 rusts while you look at it...D2 rusts if you leave it on the window sill overnite, and neither one, as expressed above, are in the same LEAGUE as CPM steels....3V holds an edge as good as D2 and is as strong as a tire iron....this is really a no brainer guys!

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
I can't help feeling like I'm stepping into a trap here, but what the hell.
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If cost is an issue, I like BG-42. Tough and takes a killer edge. If cost was not a factor, I think I would pick Talonite. Stays sharp for a long time, which is good for lazy bastids such as myself who don't want to sharpen a knife often. You don't have to worry about keeping the knife clean, dry, and lubed either. (see above)
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Tim, I'm looking forward to your new line of folders. I just hope I can afford one.
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Joe
 
Originally posted by HermanKnives:
too much for your budget? i am sorry, buy something else.
Click to expand...

Mr. Herman,

This is not a budget decision, but rather a question of relative value. You make some exquisite art knives and I would be proud to add one to my collection someday. However, just as I would never pay $10,000 to a professional artist to slap a new layer of Dutch Boy on my window trim, I wouldn't pay $500 for a using knife from you. After all, a using knife is one that is designed and built with function in mind. The best user is the one that most effectively handles the tasks required of it, not the prettiest knife or the one with a famous artisan's signature on the blade.

Others may disagree and that's what makes markets, but I'll happily wait for Busse Combat to come out with their folder and make that my primary using knife instead.

You asked for an honest opinion... now you have mine.


 
Originally posted by Wulf:
Mr. Herman,

...I wouldn't pay $500 for a using knife from you. After all, a using knife is one that is designed and built with function in mind. The best user is the one that most effectively handles the tasks required of it, not the prettiest knife or the one with a famous artisan's signature on the blade.

Click to expand...

Tim's not a famous artisan. He'a a famous folder maker. There's a lot more to a folder than just an ugly blade that cuts. I'm sure most of his "using" knives will go into collections, since lot's of folks would love to have a Tim Herman folder for $500, but if someone chooses to use it, it will certainly be equal to the task which includes opening, closing and being functional in between.

Heck, it might even be pretty too.
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------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Originally posted by tom mayo:
M2 rusts while you look at it...D2 rusts if you leave it on the window sill overnite, and neither one, as expressed above, are in the same LEAGUE as CPM steels....3V holds an edge as good as D2 and is as strong as a tire iron....this is really a no brainer guys!
Click to expand...

Awwww, come on, Tom, it isn't THAT bad. I have M2 that only rusted when I put it in its sheath, wet, for a few hours. And then only at the contact points. After many times cutting lemons and limes, I finally managed to get a patina on it. Yeah, it will rust, but it isn't THAT bad. Well, maybe in Hawaii. Hey, ya gotta take the bad with the good! Live in paradise, your knives are gonna rust. Nice tradeoff.
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iktomi
 
Jerry, I really have to disagree about BG42 not being in the same league as some of the CPM steels.
BG-42 is not in the same league; it's Vanadium content is much lower and powder metallury produces a much finer grain structure
Click to expand...
BG42 holds an edge longer than 440V in my experience (and in some tests) yet 440V has more vanadium. It is also much tougher, harder, and more corrosion resistant.
While I do not know whether powder metallurgy or manufacture using the VIM/VAR process (BG42 uses this process) is cleaner/finer, they are both as fine and clean as it gets. BG42 is a bearing grade steel remember?

-Johnny
 
GAKnife
I will state again. I have a HELL of a lot of experience with cryo'd M-2. I regularly send off M-2 tool steel in the form of end mills, and other machine tools, to a company known as ONE CRYO in Seattle, WA. As I also stated before, and according to data I recieved from various sources BEFORE I bought the cryo theory, it reduces the retained austenite, thereby making the steel tougher. I see this in the machine tools I have sent off, and since I also regrind those machine tools, they are much easier to sharpen, and outlast the non cryo'd tools by over 50%. I have also sent knife blades made of heat treated D2 along, and the owners have noticed a tremendous difference in edge retainment, and ease of resharpening. ONE Cryo has told me that they will cryo any tool (including knives) that I send, and have stated the results will be similar.
This is REAL cryo.....not a feeble attempt with dry ice.
Next time you decide to tell someone they don't know their stuff, you better get your facts straight, and figure out FOR SURE if you are correct. If you have any doubts, call ONE cryo yourself. I don't have the number here at home, but since you are so smart, call information for it.
 
ATS-34 is a bearing grade steel as well. That's why it was developed. I have no doubt that there are many well made BG-42 blades that outperform some 440V blades. There are some well made ATS-34 blades that outperform some 440V blades. The question is really what the steel has to offer.

CPM's are very fussy in their heat treating. That might account for your unhappy experience with it, but the 5% Vanadium in 440V should produce a very wear resistant steel. If it didn't, I honestly don't think the steel was to blame. I must admit, I have limited experience with 440V, just a few blades, but I have a lot of experience with CPM-3V and it is dramatically superior to any other steel I've used.

Before I get in deeper here, I'm speaking just of stock removal shaping of high alloy steels - not forged tools steels. For Tim's application though I think 420V would be an excellent choice. S30V (stainless 3V) might be better, but I haven't tried it yet. If he doesn't want the aggrevation of working with CPM's, which are difficult to shape and finish, BG-42 would be an excellent choice, as would Talonite.

440V. like 440C, has one quality that I worry about, and may have been the cause of your blade not holding an edge well. They are normally tempered at 400 degrees. That's fairly low, and if the blade is overheated when it is finished or when the edge is shaped just prior to sharpening (easy to do on a belt grinder), it is very easy to ruin the temper. The resulting edge can be several points softer than it should be and edge retention will suck. Overheating also impacts blade toughness which contributes to poor edge retention as well. To put this in perspective, Paul Bos tempers 440V to Rc60-61. A poorly tempered blade that is overheated in finishing will easily drop to Rc51. It would be interesting to know how your blade tests. I'll bet it's in the low 50's.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Whoa Code 3! I'm a great fan of Cryogenics. I'm not sure what I said that made you think otherwise. All my blades are cryogenic quenched. I was earlier responding to a negative comment on cryo from someone else. I'm on your side!!!
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In fact here's what I said earlier...

"Cryogenic is about -300 degrees and it meaningfuly improves the structure of the steel."

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 08-28-2000).]
 
thank you all so far for your comments, i do appreciate it. keep them coming.

to those that think "using" knives means under say $200, then by all means dont buy a knife from me. i fully understand.

i have ordered some bg42 and have d2 around, along with my standard ats34. one reason for not offering any steel you want as standard is that paul bos does my blades for me and having one or 2 blades of a certain steel alone will be costlier to you, the end user. if you want a particular steel, let me know and i will see hwat extra cost will be involved. then again as i said earlier, i wont be making these in high numbers maybe 15-25 per year depending on my orders and new designs i am working on.
 
For non-stainless it's 52100E, best steel around anyway.
For stainless i would go with Böhler K190PM, which is kinda like a powdermetallurgic D-7 (seven!). Much easier to work with than with the CPM's and less edge chipping with same edge holding performance. Not cheap, though.

Achim
 
Great. Now we have another choice to further confuse us. Powdermetallurgical D7? Sounds like some good stuff, but where can we find this stuff? Is it only available in Germany?

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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
 
BG-42 compliments the biggest selection of the knives I buy. Got an eye towards Talonite, but for now, BG-42 is my winner.

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Lead,follow, or get the hell out of the way!
 
Talonite... Okay, I know it is not steel, but it holds an edge forever, does not stain or rust, and can be resharpened quickly and easily. Okay, for you steel fans, BG-42... But I still cast my ballot for Talonite.
 
Jerry, I could be wrong but I really doubt ATS34 is a bearing grade steel. Bearing grade steels require a very fine grain structure and need to be very clean. BG42 has a fine grain structure because of the vanadium while ATS34 has no vanadium. BG42 is purified using VIM/VAR and this is an expensive process. Even CPM's own 154CM which is supposedly cleaner than ATS34 doesn't use this process. 52100 is another bearing grade steel, although not stainless.

-Johnny
 
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