Your opinion on phenolic laminates, difference among 10 yarns, 21 yarns, 32 yarns ???

In knife country, Its just too easy to split hairs...
Along with Norplex product, If the stuff were manufactured by Westinghouse. Its ok to call it Micarta too. You have my permission.

As far as threadcount, I like higher. Coarser threads dont polish as I prefer them to.
 
Thank you Andrew. It is fair to speculate one's intention and comment based on your guesses if you clarify those are your speculations only. Some people suggest they know what I would do before I know it myself? How is that possible? For now I want to focus on yarn count question and will dig deeper in the coming days. I will try produce some phenolic (BPF/Novolac) laminates myself and test them. Maybe I end up custom making them myself. Who knows.

To reduce some dealer's over-sensitivity I have modified the topic to be "phenolic laminates". It is not all what I expected when a technical question was answered with so much political fury.
 
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I think the point is, a user calling a phonolic laminate "Micarta" is just using the easily recognizable term. You, as a producer/ seller should not be using another producer's trade name for a product you would sell to make a profit. If I call a four wheel drive enclosed truck a "Jeep" who cares? If Honda calls their vehicle a "Jeep", that is totally different. It reeks of counterfeiting.
 
Hello Kevin,

You have lost me. Who mentioned selling something using brand names other than the manufacturers?
 
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tiancode said:
Thank you Andrew. It is fair to speculate one's intention and comment based on your guesses if you clarify those are your speculations only. Some people suggest they know what I would do before I know it myself? How is that possible? For now I want to focus on yarn count question and will dig deeper in the coming days. It gets more intriguing after all these debates. I will try produce some phenolic laminates myself and test them. Maybe I end up custom making them myself. Who knows.

To reduce some dealer's over-sensitivity I have modified the topic to be "phenolic laminates". It is not all what I expected when a technical question was answered with so much political fury. If they want to protect certain brand name, why not do a google search and sue the thousands of online forums that are using it incorrectly, including hundreds of posts in this forum alone.
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Well I think that quality of jeans is determined by weight of canvas .And I think that if you made "phenolic laminates" ;) with MORE yarn count /more weight/ you will get stronger MyCarta .......... :) If You like I can ask my friend who is a manager here ............. http://www.eurokompozit.mk/
 
tiancode said:
To reduce some dealer's over-sensitivity I have modified the topic to be "phenolic laminates".
Click to expand...
If you are referring to me, you missed my point. I will be more clear. I was contacted by Norplex and told I could not use the name micarta® unless it was:
• Purchased from Norplex
• Was Westinghouse or International Paper old stock.

I was trying to help. But if you want to be sued by Norplex, I'm sure they can make arrangements.

BTW, you never did answer what country the phenolic laminate is manufactured in.

Chuck
 
Hi Chuck,

I have asked the question of the original manufacturer to the party who is selling and have not received an answer yet. Although some questions were discussed in the context with that particular supplier, I was looking at many other suppliers at the same time. The reason why I was careless with the word Micarta is partially because in the past people used the word Micarta rather freely in any in-person discussions I was involved in.

Thank you for the information, and sharing your experience. From now I will be extra careful with the brand and only use the makers' brand name to discuss. However, other than some very pleasant first hand experience with Shadetree's material, phenolic laminates are new to me. I realized now, some confusion may rise because I asked the question using a dealer's account. Going back to the technical side, I want to check out the epoxy resin known as "Glycidyl Amine Epoxy Resin" when making laminates. More experiences can be gained by actually using the materials and try make some "mycarta". That is where I hope I can make progress in the near future.
 
Does anyone know which of the wide range of cotton/phenolic Micarta grades that Norplex make is the one that knife makers use and refer to as "Micarta"? I am thinking it is NP310 for "Canvas" and NP320 for "Linen", but I am making an only somewhat educated guess based on the Norplex web site, the Tufnol website (UK high grade engineering laminates) and access to BS EN 60893-3-4-2004 +A1:2012 which both brands reference. If I was approaching the question of what kind of laminates would work for knife makers other than those made by the afore mentioned companies, I would first want to know what it was that I was matching.


Norplex
http://www.norplex-micarta.com/Products/SheetProducts/PhenolicResin-CottonFabricSubstrates.aspx

Choice of cotton substrates:
http://www.norplex-micarta.com/Port...Sheet/PS_Phenolic_Resin_Cotton_Substrates.pdf

Material properties:
http://www.norplex-micarta.com/Portals/0/Documents/Products/Sheet/PC_Sheets_Cotton.pdf

Specs and standards cross reference:
http://www.norplex-micarta.com/Portals/0/Documents/Products/Sheet/Standards_X-Ref_Sheets.pdf

Since neither Norplex nor Tufnol describe their laminates in terms of yarn count, those descriptions are not much use. The closest I have come is looking at that BS spec.

Bear with me a sec.

Tufnol makes five types of phenolic/cotton laminate sheet:
http://www.tufnol.com/materials-full/fabric_laminates.aspx
  • Carp Brand - Premium fine weave grade for quality components - BS EN 60893-3-4 Type PF CC 305 "very fine weave"
  • Vole Brand - Medium/fine weave for good all round machining - BS EN 60893-3-4 Type PF CC 203 "fine weave"
  • Whale Brand - Good general purpose medium weave mechanical grade - BS EN 60893-3-4 Type PF CC 203 "fine weave"
  • Crow Brand - Coarse weave grade for tough, rugged components - BS EN 60893-3-4 Type PF CC 201 "coarse weave"
  • Grade 2F/14 - Enhanced electrical properties for electro-mechanical components - lets ignore this one.

From the BS standard.
Fabric weaves of type PC and CC reinforcements:

Coarse weave >130g/m2 ≤30 Thread count cm-1
Fine weave ≤130g/m2 >30 Thread count cm-1
Very fine weave ≤125g/m2 >38 Thread count cm-1
These are not standards, just a guide In general, the finer weave materials have better machining characteristics.

Norplex NP310 cross refs PF CC 201,
NP320 refs PF CC 203

I am sure that if someone was really interested they could continue down this path or a similar one and figure out what standards a laminate would have to conform to in order to match the properties of Micarta and Tufnol valued by knife makers, then use those standards when talking to suppliers.



I bought some 1" and 1/2" thick no-brand phenolic from a plastics and gaskets place in Kentucky about 8 years ago, the 1/2 stuff was okay-ish, but the black 1" stuff is not nice to work with, even dustier than real Micarta and all but impossible to finish well. It was cheap and I got what I paid for :rolleyes: If I had bought it from a knife supplier I might never have bought anything from them again.
 
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I use a lot of micarta materials (over 1,000 pounds per year) and have for a long time and would like to weigh in here on the "Micarta" name issue.

Westinghouse made and sold some of the best reinforced phenolic and knife makers such as Bob Loveless popularized its use on knife handles, so the knife buying public is familiar with the term "Micarta", but might not know what a person is talking about if they hear "laminated phenolic and fiber composite". It just doesn't have the same "ring" to it.

I remember about ten years ago when industry made the change. From my point of view it was actually pretty terrible. I didn't change my orders with my material suppliers, but the material changed with the end result being some pretty major problems with the work I was producing at the time requiring significant re-work, replacements and some non-trivial losses. The new Micarta was not a quality material. It turns out that Norplex bought the name from Westinghouse and applied it to cheap import junk material which lacked the dimensional stability and quality of the original. Import material labeled "Micarta" because they'd bought a name.

It's my understanding that Norplex does make some good materials, but much of it isn't, and that name doesn't mean anything anymore.

In my opinion, the best phenolic is manufactured in Yonkers New York by Accurate and is called Acculam. To me it's the closest to the original material that I've found.

There are some important issues with the quality of the raw material that I've found:
1: The extent to which the fiber is impregnated with phenolic. Some materials are incomplete causing issues with dimensional changes from moisture absorption and problems getting a clean buff and a smooth finish.
2: The amount of filler used vs virgin resin. There can be so much regrind and filler added (to reduce cost) the amount of virgin phenolic resin is not the major percentage of the weight of the final product. This results in a weak crumbly material with soft spots that doesn't polish evenly and breaks or crack when dropped.
3: The quality of the workmanship concerning distribution of fiber and flatness of finished sheet.
4: There are probably differences in the quality of the base resins and cotton products also.

The end results being quite a bit of variation across the brands and grades ranging from the original Westinghouse Micarta that is hard, machines smooth, and is durable and stable and attractive, to low quality import materials that swell in water, won't lay flat, have a chalky quality and get dirty and uneven when buffed and crush or crack when a screw is run tight on it. Makers need to know what they're working with and avoid low quality materials or the quality of their knives will suffer. Why try to save two dollars on the cost of the material? That's all it is and it's foolish.

So, I describe the Acculam phenolic I use as micarta because my customers know what micarta is and would be confused by "laminated phenolic and fiber composite". It's straightforward and simple word that people understand. And I don't feel it's being disingenuous because it's closer to Westinghouse Micarta than most of the Norplex stuff is. That's a lower case "micarta". Times when I use Westinghouse Micarta that's capitalized Micarta, a proper noun. I understand that Norplex owns the trademark now and can legally call anything they want "Micarta", but to me that's getting into word games. Polyamide is Nylon, polyoxymethylene is acetal is Delrin, and reinforced phenolic is micarta, we all know what it means.

The take-away here is, call it what you want, but be aware it is all the same thing, but it isn't all the same quality and that brand name doesn't mean what it used to mean. Personally, having been burned, I try to stay away from Norplex products.
 
I totally see where you are coming from Nathan. I personally just find it over the line if a manufacturer/ reseller of the "phenolic laminate" or whatever WE may choose to call it, uses the term Micarta (lower or upper case) when talking about the raw material. I know I may be splitting hairs, especially since the OP is in the research phase and is not yet (and may not even intend too) marketing it under that name. I'm just sensitive to copy-write issues. By the way, when are some of us new guys going to have a chance to get our hands on some of your sweet sweet tooling? (sorry, that came off as kind of creepy)
 
Thanks, Nathan. Good explanation. My greatest issue is people making a laminate from old jeans and Bondo and calling it Micarta.
 
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