Your thoughts on carbon steel for hunters

The vast majority of custom knife users would not be able to tell much if ANY difference between any of those steels (I dont know anythingn about o7) if you heat treat them correctly. I would pick based on what quench oil I had. Slow oil, 01, Blue, 52100 and if I had fast oil 1095 or w2.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
Out of the steels on your list I would personally go with 52100. Any of the steels listed are a good choice though...
Reasons for picking 52100 - overall performance, availability in common sizes, it just happens to be affordable.
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I agree with Daniel completely.

JMJones said:
I would pick based on what quench oil I had. Slow oil, 01, Blue, 52100 and if I had fast oil 1095 or w2.
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That's a great point, too. All the steels you listed make great knives... whichever one you're most experienced/comfortable HTing will probably be best for you.

Don't forget to consider AEB-L or similar moderate-alloy stainless steels for the folks who want fine grain and easy to sharpen, with very good corrosion-resistance.
 
Willie71 said:
Nothing wrong with 1095, but it's a pretty simple steel. It gets a very fine grain, but the W2 and 52100 will also, and have extra alloying elements that will give you 20-30% more wear resistance.
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Not wanting to derail your thread Samurai. But can I ask a question. How does 52100 stack up against 3V?
 
O1, W2, 52100

pick the one most convient for you to work with and go for it. I really like 01 but if you blink at it to long it does like to rust :)
 
jtwodogs said:
Not wanting to derail your thread Samurai. But can I ask a question. How does 52100 stack up against 3V?
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52100 has nowhere near the corrosion-resistance or edge-holding of 3V. I'm not sure which is tougher... they're both plenty tough. 52100 is much easier to get a really nice crisp edge on.
 
Thank you all so much for this input. as far as CFV goes..... That would probably be my pick. However it isn't made any longer. I have two bars of it..... And they are for me! Otherwise CFV would be my choice. I should clarify that I need to be able to heat treat in house and the kiln only goes to 1750.

Still no one with 1.2519 experience?
 
For ultimate performance I would choose 3V. Making a knife for someone who I would consider to be an average user, I would use AEB-L. I've sharpened knives for guys at work and some will come in with a little bit of last years buck still on it. I'm not going to make a perfectly good knife out of carbon and sell it to someone who will not take care of it and then hear through the grapevine that I make a crappy product because it rusts. AEB-L is really easy to get shaving sharp again so I think this benefits the average user also.
 
Lo/Rez said:
For ultimate performance I would choose 3V.

Making a knife for someone who I would consider to be an average user, I would use AEB-L.

I've sharpened knives for guys at work and some will come in with a little bit of last years buck still on it.

I'm not going to make a perfectly good knife out of carbon and sell it to someone who will not take care of it and then hear through the grapevine that I make a crappy product because it rusts

. AEB-L is really easy to get shaving sharp again so I think this benefits the average user also.
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BINGO, that's what I was getting at with my response

If he would rather not sharpen, then he probably would rather not clean either.
 
Ah I see what you mean, Mr Count. In the end, I may go with something like 3V. Decided to settle on the O7 for now. Well, I guess I better get used to it, cause it's already cut out now! Thank you all for your help. Good thoughts on what quench oil I have. Luckily I do have the Parks 50, which works equally well on the shallow hardening stuff as well as 52100 and the like. Although I do normally use 130F canola on 52100. Gets crazy hard for me!

And concerning the Blue 2......I REALLY think that needs a fast quench ala Brine, P50, DT48. The Mn count is so low, and Hitachi does recommend a WATER quench for Blue and White steel both.

Thank you all again!
 
Speaking about not getting any love, even though it's not on your list, D2 is air hardening and at 60-61 you will work to sharpen it but it cuts for a long long time. Has been used in machine shops forever, old school man.
 
Parks 50 will work okay on most steels until such time as you try to quench a very thin blade of deep hardening steel. You run the risk of such a blade tearing itself apart. I found that out when I made a petty from CruForge V. It had worked fine in 3/16 to 1/4 sections with Parks 50, but when I quenched that .090 blade, it just blew up.
samuraistuart said:
Ah I see what you mean, Mr Count. In the end, I may go with something like 3V. Decided to settle on the O7 for now. Well, I guess I better get used to it, cause it's already cut out now! Thank you all for your help. Good thoughts on what quench oil I have. Luckily I do have the Parks 50, which works equally well on the shallow hardening stuff as well as 52100 and the like. Although I do normally use 130F canola on 52100. Gets crazy hard for me!

And concerning the Blue 2......I REALLY think that needs a fast quench ala Brine, P50, DT48. The Mn count is so low, and Hitachi does recommend a WATER quench for Blue and White steel both.

Thank you all again!
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That is good to know...thank you for that. I have used the P50 on 52100 with no issues, but it was a hunter, so the geometry was not as thin as say....a petty. I will file that away in my tactical tool box!!! If you happen to read this....do you remember what austentizing temperature you used on that CFV Petty P50 blow up? I've been sticking with 1475F after normalizing and thermal cycling. I only have two bars of that stuff left......and they are MINE!!!! Wishing big time Crucible would make it again.
 
One of the spec sheets indicates water can be used for 52100 at lower austentizing temps, but to use oil at higher temps. I did 3/32" 52100 kitchen knives at 1475 in DT48 without problems. I have now sourced a medium oil and will be using that instead anyway, as I think its preferable for our purposes.
 
I have always used 1500 austenizng temp and 400 temper for Cru Forge, pretty much the same as I do on 1084, but I haven't made a blade from it in a little while, so I have not had the chance to try this here newfangled 1475 temperature. ;) 1500/400 gives me a very fine,sharp edge, no outward signs of excessive RA like a troublesome burr and it is a bear to hand sand at that temp, so lots of vanadium carbide methinks. Dan Farr and the spec sheet say that treatment should give you around 61Rc. 425 temper will give you 59. Current wisdom says that a lower temp austenizing might improve that, but the problem may be that very few people have a fair amount of the stuff, so not as much research gets done. Adam Derosiers is probably someone you could ask about that steel because he has a ton of it.....or more accurately slightly over 2 tons last time I heard. :D
samuraistuart said:
That is good to know...thank you for that. I have used the P50 on 52100 with no issues, but it was a hunter, so the geometry was not as thin as say....a petty. I will file that away in my tactical tool box!!! If you happen to read this....do you remember what austentizing temperature you used on that CFV Petty P50 blow up? I've been sticking with 1475F after normalizing and thermal cycling. I only have two bars of that stuff left......and they are MINE!!!! Wishing big time Crucible would make it again.
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Hey, thanks for that info, mate. I have so many notes scribbled down on CFV and W2, it's crazy. I wish there was more info available, like the research that Kevin and others put into 52100. Compared to shperoidized 52100, the heat treat for CFV is pretty straight forward. I treat it exactly as I do the 52100, full normalizing and thermal cycling. I'll look up Adam and see what I can find online!

I get a little confused talking carbides sometimes. Maybe you can help? Let's take CFV for example. With excess carbon and plenty vanadium, the steel form vanadium carbides. But isn't it true that the carbides are already "made" when the steel is "made"? What I mean is that when you receive your bar of steel, the vanadium carbides exist in that matrix already, being formed when the steel is smelted and rolled out or whatever. When we heat the steel up to our hardening temperature, say 1500F, are we "robbing" some of the carbon that exists in the carbide, and putting it into the surrounding martensite matrix? In other words, the lower the hardening temperature, the more carbides are left to do their job. The higher the hardening temperature, we take away some of the carbon in the carbide. Hope that makes sense. Probably TOTALLY wrong, I get confused sometimes! Any thoughts there?
 
samuraistuart said:
But isn't it true that the carbides are already "made" when the steel is "made"?
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The short answer is "no". Try hand-sanding annealed 1084 and 3V for instance... you won't notice that much difference. Now try hand-sanding them both when hardened to 60Rc. ;)
 
I've never used 07 or the japanese stuff but if you can find CFV in your size or get it forged down it might be worth the extra wear resistance for a hunting blade. 0-1 has good edge holding for an oil quench steel as well, if the heat treat is done correctly. IMO a digital controlled furnace is needed to get the most out of it.
 
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James.....thank you. Still pondering that tho. I hear ya on your analogy. Hell, even CFV alone is like mild steel in the annealed state, but harden it and THEN try to sand it! Different animal!

Waterstone....I appreciate the advice on CFV. You are dead on, mate. If I could get it, I would, and use the crap out of it! But I only have two short bars left....and they are MY stash! I do have the digital kiln....and you are right...to get the most out of CFV you're gonna need that temp control!
 
As I understand

Steels with hardening/aust temp below 1800F (oil - water quench). MC & cementite can dissolve at certain rate & re-form+precipitate during cooling. e.g. CFV: Soak at aust long enough, all VC will dissolved, then reform on cooling. There are more excess C(free form in saturated matrix) atoms than V, so VC form & aggregate. If too much V are free in solution during aust and couple with slow cooling, lot of V will goes drift into grain serve as grain-pinned. Bad thing is that where VC form & aggregate (yup, C diffuse toward V at lower temperature).

Air & slow-oil hardening steels (mostly where Cr >= 4%). MC dissolution take place at much higher temperature than common hardening temp. e.g. VC 2150F, NbC 2200F. So reasonable to consider MC as pre-made. Even if dissolved & temp below 2300F, V & Nb don't diffuse if at all due to Cr & Mo present. M23C6 is equivalent to coarse spheroidized cementite in steel in prev group, where carbon sequester(convenient use of word) away from ferrite matrix. One big mistake often taken place in ht, when the end result still contains too much M23C6 & CSC, either didn't dissolve them and or reformed during cooling.

samuraistuart said:
...
I get a little confused talking carbides sometimes. Maybe you can help? Let's take CFV for example. With excess carbon and plenty vanadium, the steel form vanadium carbides. But isn't it true that the carbides are already "made" when the steel is "made"? What I mean is that when you receive your bar of steel, the vanadium carbides exist in that matrix already, being formed when the steel is smelted and rolled out or whatever. When we heat the steel up to our hardening temperature, say 1500F, are we "robbing" some of the carbon that exists in the carbide, and putting it into the surrounding martensite matrix? In other words, the lower the hardening temperature, the more carbides are left to do their job. The higher the hardening temperature, we take away some of the carbon in the carbide. Hope that makes sense. Probably TOTALLY wrong, I get confused sometimes! Any thoughts there?
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