Your thoughts on carbon steel for hunters

The average user won't notice a difference and unless your doing one animal after the other you probably won't notice a difference either. Corrosion will take the razor edge rite off a knife very quickly and you won't even notice it till you pull it out the sheath and wonder why it isn't as sharp as it was.

Of the steels listed in your original post, 52100 has the best balance of edge holding, ease of sharpening, and toughness. Also, from my testing and experience, 52100 will still cut even after it starts to get dull, most other steels just quit. Unfortunately to get the performance from 52100 that sets it far and above most other steels takes a lot of extra time and effort compared to the other steels. I won't get into the various debates about single/multiple quenches, ect, ect., except to say that the only steel I've tested that gets better edge holding is S30V, which is a bear to sharpen and finish, and it's a lot tougher. But to get that edge holding is not an easy task, nor a quick one.

For your purpose, it'd be hard to beat 1084, or lacking that, 1095. Either will make an excellent knife that will do everything a knife is supposed to do and then some. As for stainless, I like CPM 154. It's got a good balance of edge holding and ease of sharpening and is relatively tough for a stainless. I do a few blades in O1, but I'm not a huge fan of it because for some reason it seems it likes to rust quicker than most any steel I've used, but it does make an excellent blade.

End of the day, any of the basic carbon steels will make a good knife, you've got to figure what will work best with your set up and equipment and what your after. Just my .02 cents.
 
I think you are right Will52100. Any of them will probably perform quite well. And you're right about the heat treat on 52100 compared to other steels. It takes more time to do it, and more precision over temp control. Fortunately I do have the heat treat down for 52100, thanks to Kevin Cashen and other, including yourself I believe. That is a definite consideration, because in order to get the most out of it, a solid normalization and multiple thermal cycles are needed and that takes time and energy. I don't go for multiple quenches on it. I might try it sometime, but I have no equipment to tell me if I am gaining anything. The performance increase in grain size 15+ vs grain size 10 or 11 probably won't be noticed much. Especially factoring in all the time into doing such heat treatments.....makes the simple carbon steels look more attractive! But I do love 52100 and would like to use it, but the availability of PG O1 is nice, too. Plus it comes ready to harden.....no need for witchcraft heat treat routines!
 
Stuart, Alpha still has CRV for sale both in 1.2 diameter round and the 1 and 1.25 x 1/4 flat. USA seems to be out and K&G looks like they still have that 1 inch flat. The last big 2 ton plus billet supposedly went to a company that makes horseshoe knives because Aldo tried to track it down. I still have like 40 or so of the 1.25 x 36 flat bars and 15 of the 2 inchers.
samuraistuart said:
James.....thank you. Still pondering that tho. I hear ya on your analogy. Hell, even CFV alone is like mild steel in the annealed state, but harden it and THEN try to sand it! Different animal!

Waterstone....I appreciate the advice on CFV. You are dead on, mate. If I could get it, I would, and use the crap out of it! But I only have two short bars left....and they are MY stash! I do have the digital kiln....and you are right...to get the most out of CFV you're gonna need that temp control!
Click to expand...
 
Absolutely.....O1 is a great choice due to availability, even precision ground, and relatively affordable. Makes for a great edge! The thing is JM, I probably wouldn't even know what to do with the rounds. I guess I could get them, and have them, because forging is beyond my ability right now. I would love to sit down and actually do it some day for sure. Apartment living separates what I can/can't do right now. We do have property an hour away, and there is an open air forge that my grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather used. Back to 1854 anyway!

Concerning the flat bars.....The geometry of .25 x 1 doesn't appeal to me. Just thinking out loud, I could make a puukko style knife I suppose with those dimensions. Any thoughts there? I LOVE CFV. We like to talk about learning a steel and sticking with it.....that would be the one I would choose. Not as complex as 52100....maybe a good thing!

I ENVY you guys who forge and have the place to do it
 
I fall into the 52100 camp out of the steels you are considering-i don't have a lot of experience through hardening it but differential hardened and tempered at 375 it will hold an edge for a long time, and still be pretty tough, especially in a high convex grind. 80CrV2 is worth looking at as well-At this point (from a combination of chance and the need for field testing) 2 out of 3 of my personal knives currently are 80CrV2. Stuff gets very, very sharp. (The third one is a pattern welded san mai with a blue #2 core).
 
samuraistuart said:
And concerning the Blue 2......I REALLY think that needs a fast quench ala Brine, P50, DT48. The Mn count is so low, and Hitachi does recommend a WATER quench for Blue and White steel both.

Thank you all again!
Click to expand...
Blue #2 will harden in canola. I don't have a rockwell tester but the sanmai I did (admittedly with a very thin core by the time it was forged out) got stupid hard. Only the 2nd one I've done in Blue, but it worked.
 
So we all agree they're all great alloys that make great knives :)

The next step, and the step that really matters, is to ask the same question from your target users, not makers who will most likely never buy one.

Do the folks in the market you're trying to serve even know the difference, other than "stainless" or "carbon"?

Of those that do know the difference between the various "carbon" steels, would the O1 fans be interested in a well-designed and well-executed knife made of 52100, or vice versa, or 1095 or W2 or? My gut instinct is heck yeah, most of them would. But there's only one way to find out.
 
Damn fine thoughts, James. I have a feeling you nailed it with that post. I think that describes a lot of people not familiar with carbon done right.

JWB, I did a Blue 2 chef's in canola. It got stupid hard for sure. I just did yesterday another in P50. It as well got stupid hard. Canola is just a TAD slower than the P50 from what I am hearing. As long as the canola is warmed a bit up from room temp, and 130F seems to be the target. I like my P50 right at 100F, and to do so I set the 3 gallon container on my kiln as it warms up.

Ah....I keep forgetting to mention the 80CrV2 / 1080+ steel. I have played a bit with it, but honestly only in a non controlled heat treat forge. I have yet to dial in something for that steel in the kiln. It is an excellent consideration that I failed to bring up. Especially since I happen to have a few bars of it in the right thickness for this project.

I'll have to remember to come back and update (necro post---- don't tell the mods) what transpires with the O7 blade now in the vurtz.
 
Last edited:
samuraistuart said:
Damn fine thoughts, James. I have a feeling you nailed it with that post. I think that describes a lot of people not familiar with carbon done right.
Click to expand...

I am a user who is not familiar with carbon steels done right, but I am a hunter, so here are my thoughts:
You said the friend is a hunting guide, which means he is probably the one doing the gutting and skinning for his clients. He will want a knife that can handle several animals before needing to be sharpened, and at least make it through 2 whitetails before needing to be touched up. It will scrape bone, possibly disjoint the rear quarters, and maybe even go through the cartilage on the side of the sternum if he doesn't use a small saw for that. Edge retention rules as it is not going to be used for chopping or high impact tasks.

I have far more experience with stainless steels, as my current hunting knife is a GSO-4.1 in M390. I've used a Gerber Freeman in s30v, and my f-i-l's old Western Boy Scout knife from the 1950s (yep, carbon steel). The carbon steel couldn't hold a candle to the others for edge retention, but then, it was a mass produced blade of unknown carbon steel. I don't know if you would be able to do CPM-3V in-house or if you would have to send it out, but it has the right balance of toughness and edge retention for a carbon steel (well, non-stainless) hunting knife.
 
The super steels are going to obviously have more abrasion resistance, but don't count out good old carbon steel for many uses, particularly as we have figured out that you can leave it a LOT harder than in the old days and even compared to how some popular production companies do it today. I see no reason whatsoever to have a regular sized knife made from 1095 or O1 that is 55-56 RC. By the way, i have personal experience with Don Hanson W2 at around 61Rc being able to do what your friend wants his knife to do.
loonybin said:
I am a user who is not familiar with carbon steels done right, but I am a hunter, so here are my thoughts:
You said the friend is a hunting guide, which means he is probably the one doing the gutting and skinning for his clients. He will want a knife that can handle several animals before needing to be sharpened, and at least make it through 2 whitetails before needing to be touched up. It will scrape bone, possibly disjoint the rear quarters, and maybe even go through the cartilage on the side of the sternum if he doesn't use a small saw for that. Edge retention rules as it is not going to be used for chopping or high impact tasks.

I have far more experience with stainless steels, as my current hunting knife is a GSO-4.1 in M390. I've used a Gerber Freeman in s30v, and my f-i-l's old Western Boy Scout knife from the 1950s (yep, carbon steel). The carbon steel couldn't hold a candle to the others for edge retention, but then, it was a mass produced blade of unknown carbon steel. I don't know if you would be able to do CPM-3V in-house or if you would have to send it out, but it has the right balance of toughness and edge retention for a carbon steel (well, non-stainless) hunting knife.
Click to expand...
 
On and on it goes... and this is why I advise polling the customers, not other makers.

We can argue this stuff until we turn blue and keel over.

Hell, we haven't even settled on a base hardness for these theoretical blades... typical factory O1 or 1095 @ 56Rc is never going to come close performance-wise to handmade W2 or 52100 @ 60Rc... so what?

If I understand the OP correctly, he's looking to make basic, affordable knives for hunters who spend a couple weeks a year in the field and might open up 3 or 4 game animals if they're lucky... Not collectors. That's really not that complicated, gentlemen. If it was my project, I'd use 52100 at 60Rc, ground real thin. *shrug*
 
I'll cast my vote for O1 and W2

I'm most familiar with O1 and find that it makes an excellent blade. I have a knife I forged for cutting leather and it's still sharp after having been through dozens of feet. Sharpening is quite easy on my water stones and rust isn't a problem as long as the blade is kept dry after use. My relatives up north in Valemount, BC have O1 blades they've been using for years when they're hunting and love them. They really depend on long lasting gear and treat the knives with respect.

W2 on the other hand I've had mixed results which is probably my fault mostly. I've had some knives turn out amazingly well and others not so much. Besides my botching I have to say that they have an edge that is just as good as O1 and wouldn't turn down an W2 blade any day.
 
I think you'll enjoy that 1.2519

I used to buy that stuff (my normal supplier can't get it anymore.)

Don't pay attention to the looks of the blade. But it's a tough steel that holds an edge well. This big blade was made out of 5.6mm thick 1.2519 (I normally call it OW3 but you're right it's close to O7)

[video]https://youtu.be/iUp7667gr0w[/video]
 
loonybin said:
I am a user who is not familiar with carbon steels done right, but I am a hunter, so here are my thoughts:
You said the friend is a hunting guide, which means he is probably the one doing the gutting and skinning for his clients. He will want a knife that can handle several animals before needing to be sharpened, and at least make it through 2 whitetails before needing to be touched up. It will scrape bone, possibly disjoint the rear quarters, and maybe even go through the cartilage on the side of the sternum if he doesn't use a small saw for that. Edge retention rules as it is not going to be used for chopping or high impact tasks.

I have far more experience with stainless steels, as my current hunting knife is a GSO-4.1 in M390. I've used a Gerber Freeman in s30v, and my f-i-l's old Western Boy Scout knife from the 1950s (yep, carbon steel). The carbon steel couldn't hold a candle to the others for edge retention, but then, it was a mass produced blade of unknown carbon steel. I don't know if you would be able to do CPM-3V in-house or if you would have to send it out, but it has the right balance of toughness and edge retention for a carbon steel (well, non-stainless) hunting knife.
Click to expand...


'THis combined with James Terrio's comments about talking to your prospective market. That said, even most "users" have no clue as to the differences in the steel and have no idea what is possible with a good knife. Hell half of them don't even know what sharp is.

Soooo we can all give you suggestions,but my best advice is to make some sample knives and see what gets the votes. (if you read Phil Wilson's website he does a lot of this, and that's why his knives are so good.)

Personally, I think you can't beat 3V for a hard working knife, and AEB-L blows most commercial knives out of the water while being reasonably corrosion impervious. (my wife thinks AEBL- is amazing in the kitchen, ...:))
 
I appreciate all the 3v suggestions. Not a huge fan. And I would like to stick with carbon. Funny all the stainless suggestions in this thread. Not a consideration right now.

The hardness of our custom made carbon steel knives is a huge factor. Good point there. Most people have no idea what a carbon knife at 60HRC or above is capable of, and they haven't a clue as to what SHARP really is.

I know my buddy is concerned about edge retention, but any of those steels mentioned can cut up white tail deer for quite a while before needing a touch up.

James, again, I think your comments are nailing it to the board. The carbon steels (any mentioned) done at 60-63 are going to really really impress this guy and his clients.
 
jdm61 said:
The super steels are going to obviously have more abrasion resistance, but don't count out good old carbon steel for many uses, particularly as we have figured out that you can leave it a LOT harder than in the old days and even compared to how some popular production companies do it today. I see no reason whatsoever to have a regular sized knife made from 1095 or O1 that is 55-56 RC. By the way, i have personal experience with Don Hanson W2 at around 61Rc being able to do what your friend wants his knife to do.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of the popular production companies who use carbon steel are going more for toughness than edge retention, and people have just been conditioned to think that's what all carbon steel performs like. Being just a buyer and not a metalurgist, I stay away from those kinds of knives when I'm looking for a cutter, and thus my knives are powder steels and tool steels. I think proper marketing and educating will be in order for a high Rc carbon steel blade.

samuraistuart said:
I appreciate all the 3v suggestions. Not a huge fan. And I would like to stick with carbon. Funny all the stainless suggestions in this thread. Not a consideration right now.
Click to expand...
I didn't realize 3V is a stainless. I thought it had to have 12% to be considered stainless (hence D2 is not really considered stainless)? You mentioned using tool steels, which is what I though 3V is (which is why I mentioned it).

The hardness of our custom made carbon steel knives is a huge factor. Good point there. Most people have no idea what a carbon knife at 60HRC or above is capable of, and they haven't a clue as to what SHARP really is.

I know my buddy is concerned about edge retention, but any of those steels mentioned can cut up white tail deer for quite a while before needing a touch up.
Click to expand...
And that is the point of my post.
From the perspective of this hunter (me): If you're going to make a carbon steel blade at a low Rc, don't bother. I wouldn't bother buying one like that, especially if the price is up there with some of the powder steel hunting knives with better performance. I have several kids, and if I and two or three of my boys get deer on the same day, then edge retention matters, especially if it's early in the season when it's warm. Speed to avoid meat spoilage is an issue, and I can't afford to spend time sharpening my knife when I need to be gutting, skinning and quartering animals. 20 seconds on my Sharpmaker to touch up the edge after a couple deer is no big deal, but I don't want to spend time resharpening when I need to be processing. Put a higher heat treat on it so that I don't have to sharpen as much and it becomes much more interesting.

If this is just a custom blade, then just ask your friend, but since you want to sell more of them, your performance vs. cost will be an issue. Are you going to make the handle nice and fancy with mosaic pins/exotic woods/etc. that will increase price but do nothing for performance, or keep handle materials on a more utilitarian level to keep your price point down? Your "blue" and "gold" lines will have to compete with the likes of the GSO-4.1 and similar knives. Being hand made and made in smaller runs will naturally mean that they'll cost more if you can't buy your materials in large bulk batches, but it's something to consider as you make the knife.
 
Loony bin, I appreciate your thoughts. Maybe I should clarify a bit more. I cannot use steels (for this lower end production line), that I have to send off for heat treat. As it stands, and as stated, I can only heat treat carbon steels and tool steels. Anything above 1750F temps is out of my ball game. The second run of knives, which I am hoping will be needed and wanted, will be a higher end tool steel or stainless. Probably CPM M4.

I wasn't saying that 3V was stainless. I realize that is how it came across. My point was I would have to send it off for heat treat, running cost up....so it is out of the question.

I was never planning on making a carbon steel knife with a low RC number. Above 60 for sure, probably 62-63 range. Most people have NEVER experienced the performance of even a simple carbon steel like 1095 at that hardness level, much less something else with carbide formers in it like 52100, O1, or O7.

As mentioned I am hoping this will turn into two lines of knives. A basic one (a simple carbon or tool steel, hence the thread), and a higher end knife (prob CPM M4) hopefully down the line. This lower end line will not have anything fancy on it. We're talking steel, wood, pins. Thats it. No mosaics, no bolsters, none of that. It will be kept minimalist to maximize profit. Profit....yeah right.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I really should clarify, probably edit the thread title, to include......heat treat is 1750F max. That would eliminate a few suggestions. I did start this thread on another forum....and I forget what I said where.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top