ZDP 189 Leek = huge disappointment

[billym]

I used to sell Kershaw in a retail store. I was NEVER impressed with the knives. I have seen their dive knives completely crack in pieces several times.
The biggest reason we sold any was the assited opening; I have no need for assited openers.
When I see a manufacturer make an crappy inexpensive knife I figure the pricey stuff in not worth it.

 

[Larrin]

It's a super hard, high carbide steel with a thin profile blade. It's not surprising. And it shouldn't be nearly corrosion resistant enough to survive salt water.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Oh dear, that's what the can openers are for...

I had a small key chain one and found that it was way faster to just use a knife and the knife in general was far more useful as a general tool. Same reason that I don't carry sissors much. Plus it helps to promote a more utility side of knives when they are so used. It is also useful to be able to cut the metal into pieces for fishing lures and such and doing such work is much easier with a knife than can openers. Cutting the curve is the tricky part, you have to turn slowly as you are pressing down and cut the metal in the non-raised sections as the raised sections are much harder. The main issue with the Finch is that the pivot needs to be inforced with the grip so you are pinching around the opening hole and the groves on the thumb ramp press a little into the fingers. I have been temped for awhile now to get a maker to actually forge a knife out of a bunch of can opener blades as obviously that would be a high performance knife.

-Cliff

 

[samhain73]

Another ZDP Leek thread? If you were at home, why not use a drill?

Again:

drill bit--$5.00
ZDP Leek--$140
using the right tool for the job--Priceless

The Leek is designed to cut, not pry or twist. I would say you're lucky the Rainbow Leek didn't break the first time you used it to make the other hole. I bet if it had, no one here would have heard about it. I have never had any problems with my Leeks, and I use mine dozens of times per day--TO CUT STUFF! I don't pry or chop or twist or stab with it.

It does suck that a knife as expensive as this is having so many problems in the field, but those of us that use the knife as it was intended are very happy with it. But I am sorry your blade broke Mike. Give Kershaw the opportunity to replace it--they will. Then you can sell me the knife Good Luck!

In my opinion, what he was doing WAS cutting. If you can't use a knife to cut a hole in plastic, it is worthless. What next? "You should have used scisors to cut the paper, you should have blah blah...." It is a TOOL people! Not friggin' piece of art! When did all these weirdo's who worry more about fit&finish and how much the friggin thing cost, or who made it, come around? There really isn't more to worry about other than it's performance as a KNIFE! Safe queens? "it has a scratch on it" Bah! "Opinals shouldn't be used for...." Sheesh! It's a Knife! Use it as such and all is well, but a knife is a cutting tool,(or should be) not just a pretty razor.

 

[puukkoman]

I do however, agree with the idea of returning it to Kershaw. I"ve no doubt they'll make things right if given a chance to. (then I'd sell or trade the new one off in a New York minute)

That's what I'd recommend, to start with. Don't know how good Kershaw's CS dept. is, but hopefully you'll get a replacement; sell that piece.

My solution(s):
Benchmade 525 Mini-Presidio, 154CM
Benchmade 440 Opportunist, S30V
Spyderco Military, S30V
Spyderco Salt series, H1
etc.

sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's a super hard, high carbide steel with a thin profile blade. It's not surprising. And it shouldn't be nearly corrosion resistant enough to survive salt water.

You think the tensile point on ZDP-189 is lower than the yield point on 440A? He also wasn't using it in salt water.

I did not dive with the knife, and it did not get wet other than from the slow drizzle that day. A few tiny superficial rust spots would not have bothered me, but dozens of raised spots is just not a practical blade.

a friend of mine had his tip snapped off when his girlfriend used it to cut a sandwich.

Your friend wouldn't happen to be dating Jill Mills would he?

-Cliff

 

[samhain73]

That's what I'd recommend, to start with. Don't know how good Kershaw's CS dept. is, but hopefully you'll get a replacement; sell that piece.

Kershaw warranty dept is awsome, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Patapsco Mike]

Thanks for the feedback guys. BladeForums is awesome.

I had no intention to bash Kershaw. They are pushing the envelope, and I applaud them for it. I love the Leek design, and will buy another. I just wanted to report on my experience so others could benefit from it. To say that if you have a ZDP Leek, you had better use it somewhat gently and you darn well better not put it away wet.

I'll return the knife and see what happens. To be honest though, I don't want another of the same blade. The same thing will probably happen again. Maybe they will work with me on this.

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

Perhaps I get a little defensive on Kershaw's behalf because I know they have such an outstanding warranty department. If someone here has a broken ZDP Leek, Kershaw will probably replace the blade/knife for them, and then the ZDP Leek owner can probably sell the knife for more than they paid for it. Chalk it up to a learning experience for both the consumer and Kershaw. Let's not forget, the consumer is who requested a ZDP Leek and Kershaw tried to deliver. Granted, there are some who are dissatisfied with the results, but MANY more who haven't posted are very happy. I know Kershaw wanted to deliver the Ultimate knife that could be used to cut anything, unfortunately it didn't happen.

Cliff, what makes Spyderco's ZDP better than Kershaw's? Not a smartass question, I am genuinely curious. I never hear anyone complain about the Spyderco ZDP, although I don't visit the Spy forum.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I"d have loved to have gotten one for my wife too. Oh well, perhaps if ya' aren't making ocassional mistakes, ya' aren't pushing the envelope hard enough

On the bright side, I betcha if they have another adventure in ZDP 189 it'll be something VERY worthwhile.


IIRC, Spyderco laminates thier ZDP 189 with a softer steel. (420?) I'll leave that one for the more qualified steel geeks.

 

[will_77]

The zdp delica is solid zdp189, haven't lost the tip on my delica yet. I did lost the tip on my zdp leek already (1/8" or so), breaking down some corrugated cardboard boxes. Send it back to kershaw, they re-bladed mine with a "sep 2006" marked blade. My original blade was extremely dull, at least this one is sharp, but still sharpened with too obtuse an angle for my tastes. Maybe the leek wasn't the ideal knife to try out zdp189 on for kershaw. Maybe the s30v/440a versions are better in this regard?

 

[Runs With Scissors]

knew I shoulda kept my mouth shut re: Spydie's ZDP 189:foot:

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

I"d have loved to have gotten one for my wife too. Oh well, perhaps if ya' aren't making ocassional mistakes, ya' aren't pushing the envelope hard enough

On the bright side, I betcha if they have another adventure in ZDP 189 it'll be something VERY worthwhile.

There is a ZDP Cyclone in the works. I will try (beg) to get a prototype passaround worked out for it.

The zdp delica is solid zdp189, haven't lost the tip on my delica yet. I did lost the tip on my zdp leek already (1/8" or so), breaking down some corrugated cardboard boxes. Send it back to kershaw, they re-bladed mine with a "sep 2006" marked blade. My original blade was extremely dull, at least this one is sharp, but still sharpened with too obtuse an angle for my tastes. Maybe the leek wasn't the ideal knife to try out zdp189 on for kershaw. Maybe the s30v/440a versions are better in this regard?

Thomas from Kershaw said that the Leek blade style was a less than optimal design for the ZDP experiment. The Cyclone will be much better as long as the edge profile angle is more acute than the current Cyclone.

 

[Larrin]

You think the tensile point on ZDP-189 is lower than the yield point on 440A?

You think ZDP-189 is tough enough to handle prying?

He also wasn't using it in salt water.

My mistake.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You think ZDP-189 is tough enough to handle prying?

Prying isn't influenced by toughness but strength and when you draw the hardness of a steel to make it tougher it actually gets much weaker and easier to break when prying. The reason prybars are soft is because they are hammered upon so they need to take heavy impacts. ZDP-189 is much stronger than 440A when properly hardened and considering :

My other Leek has stood up to the same tasks that more or less ruined this blade. It's no prybar, I know. No wharncliff blade is. But I was gently twisting in soft plastic, plastic you can easily bend with your fingers.

Yes, I'd expect the tensile point of ZDP-189 to not be exceeded because it didn't even exceed the yield point of 440A. It also looks like a general problem considering :

The zdp delica is solid zdp189, haven't lost the tip on my delica yet. I did lost the tip on my zdp leek already (1/8" or so), breaking down some corrugated cardboard boxes.

and many other complaints of the same nature which point to a problem with the Leeks. You can do that type of cutting with the light Olfa blades which are 0.3 mm thick.

Cliff, what makes Spyderco's ZDP better than Kershaw's?

It is the same steel, however there are many ways to seriously degrade a steel during heat treating or grinding.

-Cliff

 

[Esav Benyamin]

... if ya' aren't making ocassional mistakes, ya' aren't pushing the envelope hard enough

That's the rationale behind the whole knife industry these days, and behind manufacturers watching Bladeforums. How else do we know what crazy idea will work?

In my opinion, what he was doing WAS cutting. If you can't use a knife to cut a hole in plastic, it is worthless.

I really like my S30V Leek but I haven't put it to work on anything rough. Still, I would think the idea behind a pointy blade is to drill into material. I guess it's time to take the Leek out and beat on it a bit.

 

[Larrin]

Prying isn't influenced by toughness

Now you're just being silly. If a steel is hard, and you pry with it, it breaks, you can throw out whatever theory you want.

 

[M Wadel]

cliff is actually right, strenght is a direct function of hardness. (and to minor degree alloying elements iirc) lets say you have steel at 59hrc (strengt~2500N/mm²) and steel at 67 (possibly 5000-5500N/mm²) it will be twice as strong, but probably much more brittle, but prying is not hammering so brittleness wont be that important here, ive tried breaking lots of hss at high hardness its almost impossible to break it by bending it, but a sudden blow/impact and its bye bye

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If a steel is hard, and you pry with it, it breaks...

Everything breaks eventually, however what I said isn't theory, it is basic metallurgical fact :

This was discussed in detail on SwordForums where Cashen heavily critized the hype and misinformation by makers who promote the nonsense of softer blades being stronger. Johnston had noted the same thing in rec.knives in the late 90's. These are makers who also bent the blades physically, so it isn't just based on the numbers, but of course that is what the numbers actually mean. It is also obvious if you ever bent a blade personally because the spine annealed ones are really weak, any adult man can easily bend a 10" 1/4" thick blade to 90 degrees but try doing it with the steel through hardened. Just like M Wadel noted, it is much stronger. Ref :

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55349

-Cliff

 

[Larrin]

When you quench a steel and test if it got hard (you don't know what the steel is), you put it in a vise and pull, it snaps like glass. The steel is obviously as hard as it gets, so it should have the highest strength possible. According to you, it should be much more difficult to break it by prying, why it is more difficult to break when you temper it?