Zdp-189

[CL01]

Others might have noticed something different, I don't know. However, my experience is that a ZDP-189 blade, such as on my Spyderco Lum Chinese, has the best edge holding of ANY knife I have. The only other knife/steel that came close, was SG2 that Kershaw was using on its Blur.

Again, my opinion only, but I have found full ZDP blades to be better in edge holding to the laminate ones, such as the Caly Jr.

IIRC, some ZDP blades are being HT up to 67, but I believe the ideal is a range of 65-67 RC.

I think it's definitely worth getting at least one knife with it. Fortunately, the Delica/Endura ZDPs aren't that expensive.

 

[Gator97]

I have 2 ZDP-189 knives, Sanetsu Gyuto which is 64-66HRC and Wiliam Henry Spearpoint which is 67HRC.
Mainly I use the gyuto, and it has quite thin edge on it. ~24 total. Edge holding is superb and so far not a single chip on it. I've done 4 hour long non stop cutting with is and in the end it could still shave and cut through the tomato under its own weight. BTW it's pretty lightweight for 270mm knife.

Sharpening isn't that bad either.

I don't really believe D2 can outperform ZDP for the thin edges.

 

[THG]

Again, my opinion only, but I have found full ZDP blades to be better in edge holding to the laminate ones, such as the Caly Jr.

How do you figure that, though, when the edge is still the same ZDP steel? Do you think maybe it's a placebo effect?

 

[CL01]

The Caly Jr. seemed easier to sharpen & it did not hold its edge as long. Also, I believe the laminate ZDP blades (Particularly Spyderco's) are at a lower RC than the solid ZDP knives.

I doubt it was the "placebo" effect since I had the laminate ZDP knife well before I had the solid ZDP one. In fact, until I got a solid ZDP knife, I wasn't that impressed with ZDP. It didn't seem any better than SG2 & barely better than CPMD2. However, the solid ZDP's edge holding was clearly better.

Again, it's just what I observed. FWIW, I also don't see how D2 could/would be better than ZDP-189.

 

[walleyeguy7]

its excellent. one of my top 5 best experiences with a steel. especially laminated

 

[nozh2002]

I hear all this cry about hard to sharpen any time new and especially extremely good steel hits the market. I think this is some kind of anti marketing to confuse consumers. But for now after several years of real use I think there is no doubt that ZDP189 is way ahead of any other stainless.

Now how expensive it is... Delika around $85 and Endura around $90. I can list quite a few more expensive knives with less performing steels. Other knives with ZDP189 are more expensive just because usually they are limited editions.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[CL01]

I hear all this cry about hard to sharpen any time new and especially extremely good steel hits the market. I think this is some kind of anti marketing to confuse consumers. But for now after several years of real use I think there is no doubt that ZDP189 is way ahead of any other stainless.

Now how expensive it is... Delika around $85 and Endura around $90. I can list quite a few more expensive knives with less performing steels. Other knives with ZDP189 are more expensive just because usually they are limited editions.

Thanks, Vassili.

I think the issue of ZDP being harder to sharpen falls in line with ANY harder steel knives. D2, S30V, S90V, etc. are going to take a bit more work than the "normal" higher end steel (ATS-34, 154CM, VG-10, etc.). It's just the way it is. I will agree that once one has a good system of sharpening harder steels, it's not a problem, but I'm sure there are quite a few that just don't have any or very many of the harder steel knives.

As to cost, yes ZDP is more expensive & harder to use, thus costs more to manufacture into a knife. Citing the low cost of a Delica/Endura ZDP isn't really relevant, as Spyderco does not have to spend any additional $ for the knife design. But they are about $45 msrp more (Or about $20 more, street price) than their VG-10 versions. On a knife that's already fairly inexpensive, that's over 30% more expensive. That is substantial.

Overall, I think ZDP's great. It's performance is noticeably better (Longer lasting edge holding & being able to have a thin edge that holds up) than just about everything out there. I say just about, because S90V seems to be up there with it, & I'm sure we'll see another steel or 2 come up that'll be as good or better.

It's not perfect, it does stain easy in comparison to some others, but like anything else, it all depends on what your needs are.

 

[nozh2002]

I think the issue of ZDP being harder to sharpen falls in line with ANY harder steel knives. D2, S30V, S90V, etc. are going to take a bit more work than the "normal" higher end steel (ATS-34, 154CM, VG-10, etc.). It's just the way it is. I will agree that once one has a good system of sharpening harder steels, it's not a problem, but I'm sure there are quite a few that just don't have any or very many of the harder steel knives.

As to cost, yes ZDP is more expensive & harder to use, thus costs more to manufacture into a knife. Citing the low cost of a Delica/Endura ZDP isn't really relevant, as Spyderco does not have to spend any additional $ for the knife design. But they are about $45 msrp more (Or about $20 more, street price) than their VG-10 versions. On a knife that's already fairly inexpensive, that's over 30% more expensive. That is substantial.

Overall, I think ZDP's great. It's performance is noticeably better (Longer lasting edge holding & being able to have a thin edge that holds up) than just about everything out there. I say just about, because S90V seems to be up there with it, & I'm sure we'll see another steel or 2 come up that'll be as good or better.

It's not perfect, it does stain easy in comparison to some others, but like anything else, it all depends on what your needs are.

It may be not perfect, but it is the best for now.

I use proper sharpening tool - DMT and I do not see difference sharpening some soft steel versus ZDP189. Softer steel make ugly burr and may need more effort to deal with it, so it is more compliceted usually.

This is the way it is for me.

However it depends on what to use for sharpening. This is always need to be mentioned - how you are sharpening. To me DMT is only suitable for sharpening and very available for everyone. So I would say that if use some junk sharpener it is hard to sharpen, but is it ZDP189 to blame?

I did not yet tested CPM S90V but CPM 10V is way behind ZDP189 so I doubt old Crucible CPM 420V (CPm S90V) will be same or better.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[CL01]

Once again, "nozh2002" shows his need to argue...

Keeping to the OP's question, ZDP-189 is probably the best (Or at least top 2) of the "current" steels available in regard to edge holding.

It is going to be "more work" to sharpen as it's much harder than "most" steels, whether one uses a DMT stone or just a standard Sharpmaker even. For many people whose hardest steels might be S30V & D2 & sharpen them fine with such a device, they'll find ZDP to be a harder steel to sharpen, period. I'm talking generalities here, NOT a specific person's ability (Not even my own, for that matter).

I think I did make a mistake about the S90V reference (Sorry), but that proves my point. There will probably be, in the near future (Maybe even already being tested), a new steel or 2 (Maybe even a laminate) that's going to out perform ZDP, but for the moment it's probably the best IF your need is strictly edge holding.

Bottom line, if you're thinking about getting a knife with ZDP, then you should definitely do so. It's worth having & at least trying out.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Was wondering about the new steel zdp-189? Have any of you had any experience with this steel? How does it perform and hold an edge? Was looking at a couple of Spyderco knives that use this steel and would appreciate any comments? Thank you.

Sean

Hi Sean,

In the world of steel, there are foundries that compete on a level that "steel heads" appreciate. Like auto racing betweern Mercedes, Ferrari or Ford, these foundries try to create steels that "jump higher and run faster" than the other guy's steel. They create steels that have chemistry's and performance features that would have been impossible 60 years ago.

In Japan, Hitachi is one of those foundries. ZDP-189 is their "super steel". They have put 3.0 % carbon (very difficult to do) and 20% chrome into the steel. They've got a bunch of other stuff in there as well, but those two alloys are their main claim to fame in ZDP.

Optimal hardness is high, in the mid 60's Rc, edge retention has CATRA tested better than almost all other production steels made today. It will hold a very thin edge at a very high hardness. Hitachi is to be congratulated for this achievement.

ZDP has been available for about 5-10 years, so it is a fairly new material.

Hitachi says that heat treatment is very critical and they recommend that only their "approved" heat treaters are used for optimal performance. Spyderco uses their heat treaters exclusively.

hope this helps.

sal

 

[nozh2002]

Once again, "nozh2002" shows his need to argue...

Keeping to the OP's question, ZDP-189 is probably the best (Or at least top 2) of the "current" steels available in regard to edge holding.

It is going to be "more work" to sharpen as it's much harder than "most" steels, whether one uses a DMT stone or just a standard Sharpmaker even. For many people whose hardest steels might be S30V & D2 & sharpen them fine with such a device, they'll find ZDP to be a harder steel to sharpen, period. I'm talking generalities here, NOT a specific person's ability (Not even my own, for that matter).

I think I did make a mistake about the S90V reference (Sorry), but that proves my point. There will probably be, in the near future (Maybe even already being tested), a new steel or 2 (Maybe even a laminate) that's going to out perform ZDP, but for the moment it's probably the best IF your need is strictly edge holding.

Bottom line, if you're thinking about getting a knife with ZDP, then you should definitely do so. It's worth having & at least trying out.

Well my personal experience with sharpening this steel on many different knives and with many other steels on many other knives shows that there is no difference in effort required to sharpen ZDP189 versus any other steel.

Only difference in effort I notice if edge is thicker and it does not matter what steel it is. So this all talks about hard to sharpen to me have no real base. The fact that it turns into personal just convince me more because this usually happen when there is nothing else to say.

I saw many times when new steel came to market it is "welcomed" with usual "hard to sharpen" mantra to confuse unexperienced customers. My experience with this as well as other who do sharpening knives same - steel what steel does not matter if use proper sharpening device. I started thread to discuss this while ago and common conclusion was that there is no difference and hardness does not matter - diamonds are way harder then any steel.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

Hi Sean,

In the world of steel, there are foundries that compete on a level that "steel heads" appreciate. Like auto racing betweern Mercedes, Ferrari or Ford, these foundries try to create steels that "jump higher and run faster" than the other guy's steel. They create steels that have chemistry's and performance features that would have been impossible 60 years ago.

In Japan, Hitachi is one of those foundries. ZDP-189 is their "super steel". They have put 3.0 % carbon (very difficult to do) and 20% chrome into the steel. They've got a bunch of other stuff in there as well, but those two alloys are their main claim to fame in ZDP.

Optimal hardness is high, in the mid 60's Rc, edge retention has CATRA tested better than almost all other production steels made today. It will hold a very thin edge at a very high hardness. Hitachi is to be congratulated for this achievement.

ZDP has been available for about 5-10 years, so it is a fairly new material.

Hitachi says that heat treatment is very critical and they recommend that only their "approved" heat treaters are used for optimal performance. Spyderco uses their heat treaters exclusively.

hope this helps.

sal

Hi Sal,

I am wondering is Hitachi ZDP189 is same as CovryX? Listed compositions for this two steel are same. Do you know anything about this?

Why Crucible is not able to reproduce this steel and stuck with high abrasive steels with enormous vanadium content?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Gator97]

Once again, "nozh2002" shows his need to argue...

Yeah,that he loves. At least for now he refrained from accompanying Putin propaganda. I'll give him that.

It is going to be "more work" to sharpen as it's much harder than "most" steels, whether one uses a DMT stone or just a standard Sharpmaker even.

Absolutely agree. Based on my personal experience of sharpening 270mm blade of Sanetsu gyuto which is 64-66HRC, Kershaw Shallot which is 63-64HRC and William Henry which is speced at 67HRC.
That steel is much more work to grind than most of the steels at various hardness I have sharpened. Exceptions being CPM-10V and CPM-125V, former at 64HRC, later 65HRC.

...there is no difference in effort required to sharpen ZDP189 versus any other steel.

That statement makes very little or no sense. By definition, metal wear resistance is: The ability of a metal to resist the gradual wearing away caused by abrasion and friction.
For your statement to be true all of the alloys have to have identical or very close wear resistance properties, considering the limits of human sensory perception.

2 weeks ago, I've sharpened ZDP-189 shallot and VG-10 Shun. Despite the fact that the shallot was more than twice as short compard to Shun, it took significantly longer time. Partly that is explained with thicker initial edge on the Shallot, but if you ever sharpen on the whetstone you can very clearly see the amount of metal removed by a single stroke. And for CPM 10V, 125V, ZDP-189 and even Aogami II at 65HRC it is very little compared to the same VG-10 at 60-61HRC.

...common conclusion was that there is no difference and hardness does not matter - diamonds are way harder then any steel.

No kidding. However, to remove the same amount of metal you either need more pressure or more number of strokes. Considering that diamond stones don't take pressure well you're required to work longer. Which is more work, or harder to sharpen.
And I really doubt about "common conclusion" as far as I can tell, you put everyone who disagreed with you on the ignore list to reach common conclusion.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Sal,

I am wondering is Hitachi ZDP189 is same as CovryX? Listed compositions for this two steel are same. Do you know anything about this?

Why Crucible is not able to reproduce this steel and stuck with high abrasive steels with enormous vanadium content?

Thanks, Vassili.

Hi Vassili,

Different foundries.

There are many very hi-tech alloys in ZDP-189 that are not listed to the public.

Crucible's S90V is running with ZDP in CATRA tests, at lest for us. Crucible uses hi vanadium because vanadium carbides are the hardest of the carbides.

When we were trying to grind Crucible's S125V, there was more wheel wear than steel removal.

sal

 

[nozh2002]

Hi Vassili,

Different foundries.

There are many very hi-tech alloys in ZDP-189 that are not listed to the public.

Crucible's S90V is running with ZDP in CATRA tests, at lest for us. Crucible uses hi vanadium because vanadium carbides are the hardest of the carbides.

When we were trying to grind Crucible's S125V, there was more wheel wear than steel removal.

sal

I am looking forward for coming Mule ZDP189 (if I am not mistaken it should bb available soon). Then I may test ZDP189 and CPM S90V side to side myself.

I hope you will do some CPM S125V Mules and CPM S110V...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[THG]

That statement makes very little or no sense. By definition, metal wear resistance is: The ability of a metal to resist the gradual wearing away caused by abrasion and friction.
For your statement to be true all of the alloys have to have identical or very close wear resistance properties, considering the limits of human sensory perception.

I dunno, I have to agree with him to an extent. When I was reprofiling my ZDP-189 Endura, metal was removed from the shoulder at about the same rate as it did on my VG-10 Delica. It went pretty fast; I was surprised because I had always heard how "hard" ZDP is to sharpen and profile. When it got closer to the edge, it did slow down a bit, though.

What kind of equipment are you using? I was using a DMT XC stone.

 

[Gator97]

I have a pretty good collection of sharpening equipment which includes:
DMT D8XXC 120 grit, 500, 700, 2K, 8-12K whetstones, microabrasive films from 15 to 2 mincons, diamond spray 0.5 and 0.25 mic plus leather stropes. Plus a few ceramic and diamond sharpeners, though they're mostly used as portables. And Edge Pro sharpening system too.

Hard and easy are relative terms. My argument is that no way it is the same to sharpen ZDP at 64-67HRC and VG-10 or 1095 steel at 60HRC.

Even for the same steel the difference is noticeable. I've sharpened the Aogami steel at 61hrc and 65+ hrc and I could really tell the difference not just by time it took, but how did the steel responded to the stone, which was the same DMT D8XXC 120 grit.

Btw, unlike him I don't go from sharpmaker fine rod(1200 grit == 15mic) to 0.5mic CrO. To get really refined edge you'd still need few steps in between.

 

[The Mastiff]

Why Crucible is not able to reproduce this steel and stuck with high abrasive steels with enormous vanadium content?

Thanks, Vassili.

I'd think copying the steel and producing it here is easily within the capabilities of a company like crucible. Is it worth it?

Vassili, I like ZDP too, as well as S90V, S110V, etc. You seem to prefer the smaller carbide steels and don't like the high vanadium steels like S110V, S90V, 10V etc.

I see them all as being good. Just a different path to the same end. Don't get me wrong, I also appreciate the smaller carbide BG42's, M2/M4, Aogami etc.

They all have their places, or the metallurgists wouldn't have developed them for the large companies.

To look down on S110V/S90V while talking up D2 ( dozier only), and ZDP ( Yuna only) seems a bit strange to me. Whatever works out for you is what counts though, isn't it?

I've really began to look at steels the way I look at my tools. Use the right tool for the job. None are better than another, they just have different uses.

BTW, S125V is no longer produced, and if some is stocked there is not much of it. If you think S110V is "abrasive", or "sandpaper" steel than you probably wouldn't have liked S125V, though it is great in the high RC's it was capable of. ( in knife steels I typically like high RC's as I too have chased burrs around in steels that were run too low.

I also don't particularly find the "supersteels" hard to sharpen. Diamonds don't care. Joe

 

[Sal Glesser]

I am looking forward for coming Mule ZDP189 (if I am not mistaken it should bb available soon). Then I may test ZDP189 and CPM S90V side to side myself.

I hope you will do some CPM S125V Mules and CPM S110V...

Thanks, Vassili.

As Joe mentioned, S125V is no longer an option. I have a Military in 125V (Eric has one and Harry Hines, the president of Crucible has one). We only made 3.

S110V is possible, I'm waiting now to see what is left of the one melt they did.

ZDP-189 Mule team is already in-house. Right now the S90V mule team is available.

Carpenter also makes powered metals. They call theirs "Micro-Melt". We're testing their MM-440C right now.

sal

 

[LorenzoL]

Sal, it is always nice to hear directly from you about what Spyderco is working on at the moment.
Just a follow-up question about ZDP-189: is it my impression or in your current line-up ZDP is used more on slicers with very thin blades and small grind angles (like the Caly or the Lum) whereas S90V seems destined to more heavy-duty knives like the Millie, and if that is the case is it just a coincidence or is there a technical reason for it?