Zdp-189

Hi Lorenzo,

We try to give a good spread. The Endura and Delica models are flat saber. Some complain about the grind (good thing we have Krein :)), but the thicker blade offers tough use geometry.

We've just not done much S90V other than the Millie and Mule Team. Eric's is planning full flat S90V for his CF Manix2.

Many think that ZDP just for light duty, but I disagree. I like the alloy and use it often. I'm currently carrying a FRN Stretch ZDP proto.

sal
 
The Mastiff said:
I'd think copying the steel and producing it here is easily within the capabilities of a company like crucible. Is it worth it?

Vassili, I like ZDP too, as well as S90V, S110V, etc. You seem to prefer the smaller carbide steels and don't like the high vanadium steels like S110V, S90V, 10V etc.

I see them all as being good. Just a different path to the same end. Don't get me wrong, I also appreciate the smaller carbide BG42's, M2/M4, Aogami etc.

They all have their places, or the metallurgists wouldn't have developed them for the large companies.

To look down on S110V/S90V while talking up D2 ( dozier only), and ZDP ( Yuna only) seems a bit strange to me. Whatever works out for you is what counts though, isn't it?

I've really began to look at steels the way I look at my tools. Use the right tool for the job. None are better than another, they just have different uses.

BTW, S125V is no longer produced, and if some is stocked there is not much of it. If you think S110V is "abrasive", or "sandpaper" steel than you probably wouldn't have liked S125V, though it is great in the high RC's it was capable of. ( in knife steels I typically like high RC's as I too have chased burrs around in steels that were run too low.

I also don't particularly find the "supersteels" hard to sharpen. Diamonds don't care. Joe
Click to expand...

Well I had same opinion until I did testing and testing show how steels hold edge. I have no preference in terms of carbides content etc. It is all based on my test results.

Before I did testing I was thinking that CPM 10V should be on the top, because of all this exotic composition etc. Turns out that 52110 properly heat treated (SR110) is way ahead.

In general it turns out that marketing departments of some companies did very good job and real performance has nothing to do with what everybody think here about what steels worse what.

My biggest disappointment was Takefu steels, and biggest surprize was Dozier's D2. Also Buck shows excellent results - better then anybody with steels they do use.

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

So it is all about how steel perform, not about composition.

And of course this is just edge retention test for very sharp edge at 200 manila rope cuts work load. I do not know who will be champ if it will be 1000 cuts.

I think manufacturers should start doing their own tests and publish results.

Why Spyderco not publishing their CATRA test results?

Why other manufacturers can not came to Spyderco to test their blades - create some industry testing facility based on Spyderco but supported by anyone?

They do not even join Mule effort, why?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Lorenzo,

We try to give a good spread. The Endura and Delica models are flat saber. Some complain about the grind (good thing we have Krein :)), but the thicker blade offers tough use geometry.

We've just not done much S90V other than the Millie and Mule Team. Eric's is planning full flat S90V for his CF Manix2.

Many think that ZDP just for light duty, but I disagree. I like the alloy and use it often. I'm currently carrying a FRN Stretch ZDP proto.

sal
Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer and I can't wait to see that FFG Manix II.
 
CL01 said:
The Caly Jr. seemed easier to sharpen & it did not hold its edge as long. Also, I believe the laminate ZDP blades (Particularly Spyderco's) are at a lower RC than the solid ZDP knives.

I doubt it was the "placebo" effect since I had the laminate ZDP knife well before I had the solid ZDP one. In fact, until I got a solid ZDP knife, I wasn't that impressed with ZDP. It didn't seem any better than SG2 & barely better than CPMD2. However, the solid ZDP's edge holding was clearly better.

Again, it's just what I observed. FWIW, I also don't see how D2 could/would be better than ZDP-189.
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It was said by Sal that a hardness of laminated ZDP-189 was Rc 64/65 - the same as for the solid ZDP-189. A Rc hardness may be more difficult to measure for laminated blades because there is no flat blade parts. However, Hitachi claims the Rc to be around 65. Sal?

In general, a tiny blade (Caly jr. ZDP) is much easier to sharpen then a ticker one (ZDP Delica). I guess that tiny blade needs sharpening more often (by the same logic). Sal?

Franco
 
Hi Vassili,

Each of your questions could be a thread of their own. I can provide you with my opinion of each question asked, but it will be just my opinion.

We each try to add to the body of knife knowledge here. While each of us thinks that our opinion is the most valid, we must also realize they are still opinions.

I can share information with you over diamonds that will show another point of view, but also, as mentioned, a whole thread.

Franco G said:
It was said by Sal that a hardness of laminated ZDP-189 was Rc 64/65 - the same as for the solid ZDP-189. A Rc hardness may be more difficult to measure for laminated blades because there is no flat blade parts. However, Hitachi claims the Rc to be around 65. Sal?

In general, a tiny blade (Caly jr. ZDP) is much easier to sharpen then a ticker one (ZDP Delica). I guess that tiny blade needs sharpening more often (by the same logic). Sal?

Franco
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1) We use Hitachi's recommended hardness and we use their trained and approved heat treaters. Micro hardness testing has no problem with small sections.

2) Edge geometry is more critical than the thickness of the blade. If the bevel grind angle is very thin, thinner than the edge angle, it would be easier to sharpen, even on a thick blade.

sal
 
Sharpest stuff out of box on my composite shallot. And william henry makes their zdp blades so sharp i'm pretty sure you can shave air. Not a typo, i said AIR.
 
Sal Glesser said:
1) We use Hitachi's recommended hardness and we use their trained and approved heat treaters. Micro hardness testing has no problem with small sections.

sal
Click to expand...

Thanks for answer, Sal. May I ask you to tell me what Rc is Hitachi's recommended hardness?

I think the 'targeted' numbers claimed in posts were mostly Rc 64/65 or 65, both for the solid and laminated ZDP. Would you be kind to confirm that? The reason I ask is that I try to compare different 'data' people posted and it is, of course, important to know approximately a hardness. As a scientist I try to make an educated guess from the available 'data'.

Franco
 
Thanks for the information Sal. Its always great to see an industry heavy weight and legend interacting and answering questions.:thumbup:
 
Hi Franco,

We go with the Rc65, or as close to it as our heat treaters can get. They are usually very close. Most heat treaters want a 2 point spread (eg: 62-64). I reguire a 1 point spread (64-65). Some heat treaters don't like to work with me because of it. Our current heat treater is great. An engineer from the Colordo school of Mines. He understands and likes to stay to tight tolerances.

Right now he's doing a test heat treat on two experimental steels from an American foundry.

Our heat treaters in Japan are also tip-drawer in their quality of ZDP heat treat. Sorry if that sounds like a commercial, but I believe Spyderco makes more knives with ZDP than other knife comjpanies.

I personallhy like the steel very much and it is often in my pocket.

Hi J.Mattson,

Thanx for the kind words. Everyone has a boss. I work for the ELU.

sal
 
Im looking at a slightly updated steel composition chart of ZDP-189. It doesnt look like it has any crazy amounts of carbides. The chart shows:
ZDP-189
Carbon - 3.00
Chromium - 20.00
Molybdenum - 1.30
Tungsten - 1.50
Vanadium - 0.10

The chart might not be complete but it seems like a rather "simple" super steel. This is Benchmade's chart BTW.

http://www.benchmade.com/images/table_blade_steels.gif

Anyways, I really like this steel. I just picked up a Spyderco Lum Chinese and I love it!
 
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