Zero bevel or micro bevel and why?

Joe Duder

Joe Duder

Joined
Jan 22, 2013
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I am new to convex ground knives. I recently purchased a fiddleback hunter variant. The blade came with a 5/32" convex grind with a convex micro-bevel. I felt that the blade wasn't as sharp as it could be, so I reprofiled it to a convex zero bevel. It's now much sharper than when I received it. It's shaving sharp but not hair popping sharp (perhaps I need to hone my convex sharpening skills).

I'm left with a quizzical feeling of maybe I should have kept the micro-bevel.:confused:

Question time.
What are the pros and cons of having a convexed micro-bevel?

Which do you prefer and why?

Do fiddlebacks come hair popping sharp?

I'm a weekend hiker and fisherman. I am just starting to get into wood carving, whittling walking sticks, spoons, decorative wood garden art, and some light batoning and feather sticks. I expect my knife to hold up well while performing those tasks as well as be on the easier side to resharpen in the field.

The Duder is new to posting, so you'll have to excuse me if I haven't provided ample details.
 
I'm gonna get killed for saying this here but I don't think you can ever get convex to hair popping sharp. It's the geometry of the blade.

There are several excellent advantages to using convex (on paper at least) but, for me, they've all fell short since I can't ever get a convex blade to be really really sharp. And invariably, people's response when I say this is always "Well you aren't sharpening it right". And there's probably some truth to that. To me, that in itself (hard to sharpen correctly) is something in the negative column for convex. I can't seem to sharpen my scandi bushfinger INCORRECTLY. And that thing is scalpel sharp...and I can always seem to get it even sharper if I want. There's no wrong way to sharpen it.

I have a ladyfinger with a convex microbevel from Andy and I'm keeping it on. In fact, as wear increases, I may try to grow that bevel out a bit.

PS...I'm not sure I could drag a beautiful blade from Andy across a piece of sandpaper 50 times if my life depended on it. I beat the shit out of my bushfinger and you touch that up with a stone from a river and it looks like the day you got it.
 
Everyone has their own preferences. I always expand the microbevel into a keen V bevel for ease of maintenance in the field because I use a 4 inch stone to refresh my edges in the field if they need it

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solid4ever said:
Mistwalker. GORGEOUS blade patina. Care to share your process?
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Based on what he has shared with us in the past (both in pictures and in writing), it seems like mistwalker uses his knives for a lot of food prep. So I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it is a natural patina you are looking at there. Moral of the story: if you want a gorgeous patina on your knife...just use it!

I do agree with your observation: that's a wonderful looking patina...the man must like his onions :p


To contribute to this thread properly, I should also add that my preference for my Fiddlebacks is to knock off the shoulder on the bevel and then just gradually work it into a full convex geometry. My process for working out the micro-bevel is to use sandpaper over a leather stop, working upwards in grit from 320 and eventually bringing it up to finish on white compound. Start at the spine and rock gradually towards the edge until it grabs the sandpaper, dragging the blade backwards across the sandpaper.

Once they've been brought up to a full convex geometry the knives probably develop a micro-bevel over time anyway, as my method of sharpening is always to use a stop and I do tend to focus on the edge rather than always starting from the spine. Anyway, it works well and I find that it's easy to touch up as long as you don't let it get stupid dull. Even then...convex sharpening is easy as it gets IMO. It's all about getting a feeling for the pressure...after that you can pretty much do it without looking: the sound is the best signal, for me, as to whether I'm doing it right or not!

As far as touching up in the field, I carry a small strop. Never really found I need more than a touch up on the go...if I were to set up camp for a while I would probably bring along a larger strop with some sandpaper, but even that can travel with you easily if you're planning ahead.


EDITED TO ADD:

To the original poster: you asked if Fiddlebacks come "hair popping sharp". In my experience, the answer to this question is no. HOWEVER, there is reasoning here: it seems to me that the point of the micro-bevel is to make the edge more robust and to make field touch ups easier. I believe that the idea is that these are hard-use knives...and although a "hair popping" edge is great, it's certainly not necessary when you're taking a knife into the woods to work with it. There are massive debates in this area (edge retention/durability vs. edge sharpness) so I'm not trying to open a can of worms here but I will say that the knives come PLENTY sharp to do all the things you listed. They will work and they will work hard, and if hair popping sharp is what you're after there are some GREAT videos kicking around that will show you how to take your knife there. Just remember that a sharper edge generally means a thinner or finer edge so you may be sacrificing durability for sharpness. Find what works for you!
 
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Thanks for the input guys. I agree with Solid's comment "I don't think you can get a convex to hair popping sharp" to a degree. I think if I had a thinner blade (1/8" or below) I could get it close to hair popping. 5/32 to me IMHO, is a thickness that is made for hard working, take a betting and keep on ticking, workhorse type knives. It is not a good thickness for shaving, food prep, nor is it a thickness for a all around crazy slicer.

I enjoy watching Virtuovice's clips on convex sharpening. He tends to take the micro-bevel off all his convex blades. All of his knives seem to slice through paper with great ease. I guess I have a tendency to assume that because a knife slices through paper it is hair popping sharp. Which I know through years of sharpening knives that that is so NOT the case. One can glide through paper long before you can shave with your knife.

Thank you Pveiled for sharing your convex reprofiling a field touch up process as well as answering all my questions. I'll have to try your sandpaper over strop method. One should never let his/her knife get stupid dull, that is a sin right up there with the deadly seven.

Thanks for the pics Mist. Always enjoy your posts and insightful info. Keep it up brother.

I suppose when I forked out the scratch for my fiddleback I was expecting too much. Don't get me wrong, the knife is handsome and a excellent example of perfection and craftsmanship. I was just expecting it to be a crazy sharp as well as a strong work horse of a knife. Basically be able to baton and shave at the same time. In retrospect, if I wanted a hair popper I should have gone with a thinner blade and maybe a flat or scandi grind. In the future I will choose my knives more appropriately/logically.
 
I will have to disagree with the statement that convex blades can't get hair popping sharp. They can, and you can do it with 5/32" stock too, but it means really working in a steep convex. The more metal you remove and the steeper you make the convex the sharper you can get that sucker, in my admittedly limited experience. It's just that you're compromising durability as you remove all that metal and make the blade thinner/steeper towards the edge. Since there are no specific angles that you need to maintain as there are with flat ground bevels, two convex knives made from the same original thickness of blade stock could have very different convex geometries...it really just depends on how gradual or steep you want to make the convex.

Think of it like this: each side of the blade, moving from the edge and up towards the spine, is like an arc: the maximum theoretical roundness possible in one arc would be something approaching hemisphere and the minimum would be a straight line. If the arc is very rounded then it would be a very gradual convex, if the arc is less rounded and more flat it would be a very steep convex. The steeper the convex the finer the edge can become but the less metal there will be behind that edge so your durability will drop accordingly.

My personal opinion is that if you buy a smallish Fiddleback in 5/32", then you’re buying thick blade stock and your getting something that’s meant to be durable. Sure, you can reprofile the blade and end up with something that’s still pretty much 5/32" at the spine and that’s also hair popping sharp (I’ve actually done this with a 5/32" Bushfinger I have) but you will change the “steepness” of the convex and there will not be as much metal behind the edge as there was originally, so it should theoretically be less durable. It’s that simple really.

In my mind blade geometries are all about compromises: there’s pros and cons to any configuration you can think of. It’s really just a matter of having the right tool for the job...and yes, 1/8" stock is probably a much better place to start if you’re looking to end with a scary sharp slicer.

I understand the feelings you’ve expressed: I also thought I would get something that had a hair popping edge on it when I got my first Fiddleback. I was a little let down at first but the more I used the knife the less I worried about it...Fiddleback Forge only sharpens these knives the one time, it’s up to us to take care of them once they’re in our grubby mitts! When you really think about it too, you pretty much just spelled it out: you can have a knife for shaving and a knife for batoning, but I wouldn’t expect it to be the same one...compromise is just a part of the game IME.

Finally, I have to say that I take absolutely no credit for the sandpaper over a strop method: it’s a well known method and there is all sorts of information about that method to be found here at Blade Forums. I too really enjoy virtuovice’s videos and if you’re looking for some convex sharpening stuff you should check out Turley Knive’s channel on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/bindlestitch1/videos?flow=grid&sort=da&view=0.

The convex sharpening tutorial he has uploaded there is how I learned to sharpen/reprofile a convex knife! Very straightforward no nonsense stuff :)
 
^Agree with pveiled. You can get hair popping sharp on any knife, just depends on how thin you grind.
 
Thanks again Peveiled. Very informative and eye-opening, particularly the "think of it like this" portion. I appreciate the depth of detail and you bring.:thumbup: I have I'll check out the turkey link you posted. Thanks.
 
I agree that a really shallow convex grind can be very sharp...but, if you are going that shallow, it's basically trading in the benefits of convex for a flat grind.

Right?

If you are saying that a shallow convex can be really sharp then what you are saying is that a convex grind that is ALMOST a flat grind can be nearly as sharp as a flat grind.

It's math more than anything. A blade geometry where the metal behind the edge grows out along X faster than Y means your edge profile will ALWAYS BE WIDER than a flat grind on that same blade. And a wider edge is not as sharp. That's why hollow grinds are the sharpest on the planet...but don't hold up at all. (more Y than X).

If a convex grind is durability at the expense of sharpness...and a hollow grind is sharpness at the expense of durability...then a flat grind is pretty much the exact middle, and that's where I like my knives to be.

but as others have said...to each their own. It's really what you are looking for in a knife. All else being equal: A convex is ALWAYS more durable. A flat is ALWAYS sharper. that's the scale.
 
I see your point Solid. Very good argument btw.

I like my blades flat ground as well. My J.Oeser bushcraft EDC with a full flat grind is hair poppin' scary sharp and I love it. But I feel I have to exercise more caution (when using it to carve wood) than I would a scandi or convex. I fear that if I'm careless and pop it out of the wood at the wrong angle it will chip/roll the edge. I realize this holds true for any grind but it seems more apparent with flat grinds.

So, the sharper the knife the thinner the cutting edge angle must be, thus compromising durability as well as dependability regardless of grind convex, scandi etc.?
 
It's worth keeping the differences between blade cutting resistance and edge sharpness in mind. I use the mousemat method and aim for all my knives to be sharp enough to easily push cut newsprint. That's sharp enough for me. Blade cutting resistance relates to how much blade metal is following the edge. As has been alluded to, the more obtuse an edge bevel the harder it will be to cut through material, regardless of your edge sharpness. I have two Fiddleback knives, one is a 5/32 Bushfinger and the other is a 1/8 Kephart. Andy had purposely ground the Bushfinger with more steel behind the edge to allow for hard use. I've got various other implements for that kind of thing so I opted to zero grind the convex edge. This has markedly improved the knife's cutting ability but it does mean I wouldn't attempt to baton the knife through a really knotty piece of pine for example. If I ever sold the knife I would take some time putting a micro bevel back on it so that the knife became more of an all rounder again. On the other hand Andy has ground my 1/8 Kephart to a much finer edge so I opted to keep the edge bevel angles but simply convexed it. This together with the thinner stock means the Kephart easily out slices my Bushfinger whilst the edge bevel means in some ways it has a tougher edge than the thicker Bushfinger.
 
Joe,

That's correct but perhaps an extreme example of it. As I said above, the true "scale" we'd place knives on (in this example at least) is Convex on one end (which is durability over sharpness) and Hollow at the other (sharpness over durability). A flat grind offers a blend of both. So it might not be entirely accurate to say that a flat compromises durability... it's just not AS durable as convex.

Remember, a sharper blade requires far less energy to cut wood...offering less concern of "durability". After I wetstone my scandi that thing slides through wood. It feathers like it was warm butter.

...but you are absolutely right that a convex blade is always more 'durable' than a flat grind.

Some other options start to help sway the vote a little too:

Blade steel helps shape both durability and the sharpness arguments. Some steel is more durable...others sharpen easier. I love Andy's steel choice as I feel my "durability" sacrifice (if it were a softer stainless for example) is removed with his forge.

But we can argue the philosophy of blade use all day...it really does come down to personal usage. For me, I've never been able to get a convex knife sharp enough to where the benefits of convex were apparent to me. I just don't see the benefits of a 'durable' blade if it always feels dull to me.

If a flat grind is halfway between convex and hollow...AND is the easiest blade to sharpen AND gets the best personal sharpening results of those 3 grinds....the choice was easy. It's borne out that way in my usage too.
 
Agreed. For me a shallow convex allows me the greatest flexibility to achieve a range of tasks. A shallow convex will happily work wood, prep food and dress game. A hollow grind blade feels horrible working wood, a Scandi grind struggles with some food prep and I'm not keen on batoning with a flat ground blade. Convex works for me:)
 
Regarding convex grinds....if you doubt what can be achieved with this grind, I will simply suggest you fire up youtube and search on the term "Tameshigiri"
 
Duder, I can tell you I have put my knives through the ringer with no issues. I wouldn't worry about ruining the edge. Go ahead and use that sucker. The only time I have had an edge chip is when my good friend here in Utah batoned my knife through the second elk sternum. But it was easily repaired and good as new.

I can also personally attest to the functionality of Andy's knives. Beat on them they like it. Just don't go Busse crazy. :)

Joe Duder said:
I see your point Solid. Very good argument btw.

I like my blades flat ground as well. My J.Oeser bushcraft EDC with a full flat grind is hair poppin' scary sharp and I love it. But I feel I have to exercise more caution (when using it to carve wood) than I would a scandi or convex. I fear that if I'm careless and pop it out of the wood at the wrong angle it will chip/roll the edge. I realize this holds true for any grind but it seems more apparent with flat grinds.

So, the sharper the knife the thinner the cutting edge angle must be, thus compromising durability as well as dependability regardless of grind convex, scandi etc.?
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I thought I'd throw my comments into this discussion too.

1. A convex can get as sharp as any other geometry. If you don't think so, go willy nilly trying to shave your arm with a Ban Tang knife at Blade Show, and then run around the rest of the weekend with a bandaid on your arm. Very embarassing for a knifemaker. LOL.

2. The geometry behind the edge has nothing to do with the sharpness of the edge. If the steel is removed to the very edge and both sides of any blade meet at the edge, then the knife is sharp. The entire concept of sharpness has nothing to do with whats behind the edge. Sharpness ends at the edge itself. Concepts like scary sharp, stupid sharp, hair poppin sharp and zombie sharp all refer to the refinement and polish on that edge. The more you polish it, the better it will push cut paper and shave hair.

3. The thinner a blade/blade geometry behind the edge, the better the cutting performance. Cutting performance is what most of this thread is about, not sharpness at all.

4. The thinner a blade/blade geometry behind the edge, the weaker the tool is. Don't go batonning chefs knives through bone.

Each Fiddleback knife is designed to a task. Your Hunter was designed as a tough outdoor work knife. It has an appropriate geometry for this task. I personally sharpened it until it cuts paper and will shave a small clean patch in one pass on my leg. (No arm hair left.)

I put the edge bevel on the knife so that it is stronger (I have to warranty this knife) and easy to maintain and sharpen. Dylan uses stones, Ron uses ceramic rods, I use sandpaper over leather. I never scratch up my blade, and neither to the others. The steel is 01. It is the easiest steel there is to sharpen. Guys, if you want to pushcut paper and shave with your knives, simply polish the edge. You don't have to zero grind your knives to get this sharpness. You just have to polish the edge up.

The thing is that I am not taking a shortcut. I sharpen your knives just like I sharpen mine. Same grits, same time, same edge. A couple of years ago, I went through a month, where I just couldn't seem to get a knife sharp. Thats when I realized the importance of putting on a hand done edge. Since then, I have gotten maybe ten knives back, and when they got here they cut paper and shaved the patch of hair off of my leg. Thats the thing about sharp. I can't measure it, and everyones standards are different.

What I can do it offer to re-sharpen your knives for you for free. You pay shipping home. Now, I'm going to take it to the original edge sharpness where the two faces meet in the middle. The other thing I do is to offer a satisfaction guarantee on my knives. When you get it, if it is dull, put it in the box and ship it home. You can choose to have it touched up, or a refund including your shipping home.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading every post and thinking about the ideas presented. Maybe a valid point to be made is that blade geometry is most important when related to the intended use of the knife. Examples would be a thin flat ground axe which would not be easily removed from the wood or a thick convex chef's blade trying to thinly slice a tomato. As a knife maker, my blades are all flat ground with a flat secondary edge. They are also all intended to slice and cut as their main function. Andy's knives have found a home with people who use them in a wide variety of ways from slicing to batoning through wood. His choice of geometry makes that possible and yet allows the knife owner to customize the edge to their choice of usage.

Another quick point is the steel and how it's treated. Steel has to be hardened and then tempered back to a usable point. That tempering can be controlled and adapted to specific use level. Really hard keeps the edge,but may chip and is harder to sharpen. Softer needs more attention to maintain sharpness, but easier to sharpen and much less likely to chip. Sounds simple, but you have to know what you want to do and how to get there with the heat treat process. 01 is a very "tough" steel and a little finicky about that heat treat process. IMHO, Andy has found that middle ground in the heat treat with 01 that gets all the best that the steel has to offer for Fiddleback users.

Bottom line-use them how you want, sharpen the way you want and just enjoy them!
 
I really hate the taste of my foot...

J.Oeser and Andy, please allow me to explain. I posted this discussion to learn more about convex edges and the sharpness there of. Though I've been collecting knives for years, I'm just starting to really focus on blade geometry, steel, grinds etc. My ignorance in these areas sometimes clouds the obvious and may come off a trifle rude/inconsiderate to a knife maker whos name might be mentioned. If my thoughts or beliefs in this post alarmed or perturbed you, please excuse me and know that it was not my intention to do so. In the future perhaps I'll give more thought into not mentioning names unless necessary.

To any reader that has not purchased a J.Oeser or Andy Roy knife... If you have the means, I recommend you pick up one of each. They are very choice and like I said earlier, they are excellent examples of perfection and craftsmanship. The problems I HAD (past tense) stemmed from operator ignorance not lack of integrity or excellence of the knife itself. I will continue to purchase both of their knives as well as recommend them to other knife enthusiasts. My brother in-law wanted to trade a $800 dirtbike for my J.Oeser blade last weekend and I just could not part with it. Stupid? I think not.

With all that said, thank you J.Oeser for your comments. Andy thanks for the schooling. I'm flattered that you both posted on my first real forum post. Keep up the good work guys.
 
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