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I've enjoyed reading all of the great input in this thread. Thanks for the wisdom.
Zero bevel or micro bevel and why?
- Thread starter Joe Duder
- Start date
I really like convex edges. Mostly because they can be maintained at really low cost. Sandpaper is pretty cheap. Good fine stones, not as much.
I use the method shown on knivesshipfree website. I use up to 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper, then leather. The edge is mirror polished and razor sharp.
I have both types of convex. I have a Fiddleback nessie which is micro-beveled, 2 knives I convexed myself (Ranger RD6 and RAT-3 second), and a RD9 bush series that got convexed by Justin Gingrich, initially a little too thin.
BTW, changing the edge on a D2 knife is not an easy task. Any wear resistant steel is sharpening resistant. But now it's a nice little knife.
Here are the 2 Ranger buddies:
As mentionned before, edge geometry is really important. A chopper needs a thicker edge than a slicer, or else:
Note that the edge bent, and didn't chip. Which is good. Anyway it was quickly fixed with a belt sander. Now it's the perfect chopper.
Are my full convex blades sharper than my micro-beveled blades? I have to say no. I can't say I really see a difference.
So why some makers chose full convex and other micro-beveled. If I had to guess, I would say that makers grind the knives the way they are the most comfortable with, and that both can be done with great results.
My 2 cents.
I use the method shown on knivesshipfree website. I use up to 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper, then leather. The edge is mirror polished and razor sharp.
I have both types of convex. I have a Fiddleback nessie which is micro-beveled, 2 knives I convexed myself (Ranger RD6 and RAT-3 second), and a RD9 bush series that got convexed by Justin Gingrich, initially a little too thin.
BTW, changing the edge on a D2 knife is not an easy task. Any wear resistant steel is sharpening resistant. But now it's a nice little knife.
Here are the 2 Ranger buddies:
As mentionned before, edge geometry is really important. A chopper needs a thicker edge than a slicer, or else:
Note that the edge bent, and didn't chip. Which is good. Anyway it was quickly fixed with a belt sander. Now it's the perfect chopper.
Are my full convex blades sharper than my micro-beveled blades? I have to say no. I can't say I really see a difference.
So why some makers chose full convex and other micro-beveled. If I had to guess, I would say that makers grind the knives the way they are the most comfortable with, and that both can be done with great results.
My 2 cents.
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I actually appreciated your post, and this thread is a very good discussion. Thanks for the support, and please, continue to post. Thinking is for wives.
solid4ever
Gold Member
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I'll echo the sentiments. I'm glad we actually got to have a real discussion here without it devolving into name calling. People are passionate about their grinds.
I think Andy's choice in adding the microbevel as a way to ensure longevity and ease of maintenance for the blade seems to blend both worlds together. The durability and "slice-ability" of the convex blade but with the sharpness /cutting ability, ease of maintenance and the sharpening results of a flat grind. It might very well actually be the perfect blend of the convex vs. flat-grind decision.
I appreciated the 'sharpness' vs. 'cutting ability' point Andy made and I realize that there is a difference in the vernacular when speaking to professional forgers. I've always blended both of those two together with the idea that a 'sharper edge cuts better'. Andyaccurately showed they are indeed different. Part of me wants to re-edit all my posts to change out 'sharpness' for 'cutting ability' now.
What still attracts me to the scandi (a "wider" flat grind) is how easy it sharpens. I have difficulty in sharpening small flat grinds because the edge bevel is so short it's hard to maintain the correct angle with your stone. Invariably I'm making pass after pass of slightly different angles that just wrecks the blade (or combs it over). Scandi strikes me as the forgers solution to easy sharpening. "Let's make the edge wide enough people can rest the knife on it when sharpening". Like I said, I can't seem to find a way to do a bad job with it.
I think Andy's choice in adding the microbevel as a way to ensure longevity and ease of maintenance for the blade seems to blend both worlds together. The durability and "slice-ability" of the convex blade but with the sharpness /cutting ability, ease of maintenance and the sharpening results of a flat grind. It might very well actually be the perfect blend of the convex vs. flat-grind decision.
I appreciated the 'sharpness' vs. 'cutting ability' point Andy made and I realize that there is a difference in the vernacular when speaking to professional forgers. I've always blended both of those two together with the idea that a 'sharper edge cuts better'. Andyaccurately showed they are indeed different. Part of me wants to re-edit all my posts to change out 'sharpness' for 'cutting ability' now.
What still attracts me to the scandi (a "wider" flat grind) is how easy it sharpens. I have difficulty in sharpening small flat grinds because the edge bevel is so short it's hard to maintain the correct angle with your stone. Invariably I'm making pass after pass of slightly different angles that just wrecks the blade (or combs it over). Scandi strikes me as the forgers solution to easy sharpening. "Let's make the edge wide enough people can rest the knife on it when sharpening". Like I said, I can't seem to find a way to do a bad job with it.
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Since picking up a worksharp, nearly all my knives are convex now. I suppose they're all micro-beveled, as well, since I don't grind down the whole blade as I sharpen the edge.
Just a couple observations:
I always assumed hair-whittling sharp was an exageration. My first experience with it was a chisel-ground pen blade on a multi-tool (SOG, I think.) I wasn't expecting much from it. When I went to try it on the hairs on the back of my wrist, it split the first one I tried in half. Then shave some others without touching my skin. Now that I've used it, like 3 times, to actually cut stuff - it doesn't do that anymore. Still sharp little bugger, though.
(Yes, I've seen Ban's video. I'm a believer.)
My SYKCO War Dog came zero-ground convex, and would slice paper, but would not shave. I finished the edge at 20 degrees per side in the guide on the WSKTS. Now it would shave, but I scratched the blade.
To remove the scratch, I put sandpaper over a vinyl-coated-cardboard box and worked back and forth ~ 20 times per side, working from 200 up to 2000 grit. At 600, it was hair-whittling. As I kept going, it lost that, but will still shave. I assume I was pressing too hard and working too fast as I got tired. Since I was working the whole blade, the edge angle wasn't something I had to think about.
I bought a used, convexed BK-16 from a respected member of the forum. I was hoping it would be wicked sharp; it was not. When I contacted him, he said he put a good chopping/abuse-taking edge on it. I reprofiled the edge a bit on the worksharp, and have sharpened it a bunch of times (because it's my hard use/abuse/beater fixed blade) each time at 20 degrees on the worksharp. It shaves easily, and slices paper and tomatoes (even at 3/16") but won't whittle hair.
I was hoping my tapered-tang 5/32 convex KE Bushie from Andy would blow my mind with its sharp slicey edge. It didn't. It would slice paper; a little work down my arm would remove a couple hairs but not leave a bald patch.
From Andy's description on the first page, it sounds like HE sharpened it to EXACTLY the specification he was looking for. I respect his design decision, and have not sharpened it myself as yet. I haven't used it as much as I might like, but each time it has done its job as a working knife very, very well. It didn't do so well on overripe tomatoes, but that's not what it was designed for. Plus, the ergos are amazing and fit/finish/construction are out of this world.
I did a little test with my RyanW High Uinta, Fiddleback KE Bushie, and modified BK16 - skinning the bark from a bay laurel branch. I did most of the work with the RyanW (that's the knife I had on me when I picked up the branch.) Felt great to start, but after a while I would get tired. It skinned well, and rarely dug into the wood. Tried the Bushie - great ergos - no hotspots. Bit into the wood better, but didn't take thin slices off quite as easily - wanted to work more of the wood off. Convex, big-handled BK16 surprised me in being the most controllable, most comfortable, and it would only take the bite I wanted it to. I could've cut my time in half compared to the High Uinta.
(On a side note, my Uinta is early production, and Ryan offered to re grind it to his current thinner edge if I send it to him. Haven't taken him up on it yet.)
I guess what I'm getting at is that I have to agree that it all depends on edge refinemint and your ability to maintain a consistent angle with light, even pressure. (I'm still learning.) I expect a micro bevel will have the benefit of additional strength, but the main benefit to me is that I can sharpen it up relatively easily without scratching up the blade.
Just a couple observations:
I always assumed hair-whittling sharp was an exageration. My first experience with it was a chisel-ground pen blade on a multi-tool (SOG, I think.) I wasn't expecting much from it. When I went to try it on the hairs on the back of my wrist, it split the first one I tried in half. Then shave some others without touching my skin. Now that I've used it, like 3 times, to actually cut stuff - it doesn't do that anymore. Still sharp little bugger, though.
(Yes, I've seen Ban's video. I'm a believer.)
My SYKCO War Dog came zero-ground convex, and would slice paper, but would not shave. I finished the edge at 20 degrees per side in the guide on the WSKTS. Now it would shave, but I scratched the blade.
To remove the scratch, I put sandpaper over a vinyl-coated-cardboard box and worked back and forth ~ 20 times per side, working from 200 up to 2000 grit. At 600, it was hair-whittling. As I kept going, it lost that, but will still shave. I assume I was pressing too hard and working too fast as I got tired. Since I was working the whole blade, the edge angle wasn't something I had to think about.
I bought a used, convexed BK-16 from a respected member of the forum. I was hoping it would be wicked sharp; it was not. When I contacted him, he said he put a good chopping/abuse-taking edge on it. I reprofiled the edge a bit on the worksharp, and have sharpened it a bunch of times (because it's my hard use/abuse/beater fixed blade) each time at 20 degrees on the worksharp. It shaves easily, and slices paper and tomatoes (even at 3/16") but won't whittle hair.
I was hoping my tapered-tang 5/32 convex KE Bushie from Andy would blow my mind with its sharp slicey edge. It didn't. It would slice paper; a little work down my arm would remove a couple hairs but not leave a bald patch.
From Andy's description on the first page, it sounds like HE sharpened it to EXACTLY the specification he was looking for. I respect his design decision, and have not sharpened it myself as yet. I haven't used it as much as I might like, but each time it has done its job as a working knife very, very well. It didn't do so well on overripe tomatoes, but that's not what it was designed for. Plus, the ergos are amazing and fit/finish/construction are out of this world.
I did a little test with my RyanW High Uinta, Fiddleback KE Bushie, and modified BK16 - skinning the bark from a bay laurel branch. I did most of the work with the RyanW (that's the knife I had on me when I picked up the branch.) Felt great to start, but after a while I would get tired. It skinned well, and rarely dug into the wood. Tried the Bushie - great ergos - no hotspots. Bit into the wood better, but didn't take thin slices off quite as easily - wanted to work more of the wood off. Convex, big-handled BK16 surprised me in being the most controllable, most comfortable, and it would only take the bite I wanted it to. I could've cut my time in half compared to the High Uinta.
(On a side note, my Uinta is early production, and Ryan offered to re grind it to his current thinner edge if I send it to him. Haven't taken him up on it yet.)
I guess what I'm getting at is that I have to agree that it all depends on edge refinemint and your ability to maintain a consistent angle with light, even pressure. (I'm still learning.) I expect a micro bevel will have the benefit of additional strength, but the main benefit to me is that I can sharpen it up relatively easily without scratching up the blade.
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[QUOTEWhat still attracts me to the scandi (a "wider" flat grind) is how easy it sharpens. I have difficulty in sharpening small flat grinds because the edge bevel is so short it's hard to maintain the correct angle with your stone. Invariably I'm making pass after pass of slightly different angles that just wrecks the blade (or combs it over). [/QUOTE]
You could always convex them
You could always convex them
Exactly. Once done it takes only a few minutes to touch up, and with the mousepad technique it's really hard to go wrong.
J. Oeser
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I'm with Andy on that.
I certainly am not offended at all. I think it is great discussion. I would not worry as much about breaking or damaging a knife. Especially in the bushcraft size the strength difference is going to be negligible between the different grinds. I put a micro bevel on mine for the same reason Andy mentioned and I agree with all he posted. In the end find the knife (or as is often the case knives) that work for you and use the crap out of them. I don't make safe queens, I like people to beat the snot out of them and I think Andy does too.
I certainly am not offended at all. I think it is great discussion. I would not worry as much about breaking or damaging a knife. Especially in the bushcraft size the strength difference is going to be negligible between the different grinds. I put a micro bevel on mine for the same reason Andy mentioned and I agree with all he posted. In the end find the knife (or as is often the case knives) that work for you and use the crap out of them. I don't make safe queens, I like people to beat the snot out of them and I think Andy does too.
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I prefer a zero convex and my knives will usually develop a very slight micro bevel from time to time. If it is ground too thin the edge will dent or chip, but it is faster to make an edge a bit sturdier than it is to remove a secondary bevel. Bark River sometimes go a bit thin on their edges and I've had a Northstar in A2 where the edge folded, but it would just glide through everything. After increasing the angle a bit on the edge it has been good.
I've thinned out my Bushfinger (S35VN) and Ladyfinger (O1). They performed well before and wonderfully after, so for my needs Andy is too conservative with his edges Next time I order a Fiddleback I'll ask Andy to grind it full convex to the edge and I'll thicken it if needed
Sverre
I've thinned out my Bushfinger (S35VN) and Ladyfinger (O1). They performed well before and wonderfully after, so for my needs Andy is too conservative with his edges
Next time I order a Fiddleback I'll ask Andy to grind it full convex to the edge and I'll thicken it if needed Sverre
Joe Duder
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I prefer a zero convex and my knives will usually develop a very slight micro bevel from time to time. If it is ground too thin the edge will dent or chip, but it is faster to make an edge a bit sturdier than it is to remove a secondary bevel. Bark River sometimes go a bit thin on their edges and I've had a Northstar in A2 where the edge folded, but it would just glide through everything. After increasing the angle a bit on the edge it has been good.
I've thinned out my Bushfinger (S35VN) and Ladyfinger (O1). They performed well before and wonderfully after, so for my needs Andy is too conservative with his edges
Sverre
I haven't heard that about BRKT. Actually, I've heard the exact opposite (with the Bravo1, Gunny, and Fox River variants). I hear they tend to have a real fat geometry to their convex edges; now they're starting to come with a secondary convex bevel that is very rough. Rough meaning there is hardly or no real transition from secondary to primary bevel. I've heard the earlier BRKT grinds have a lot leaner geometry. The fat geometry is the only reason why I haven't picked up a couple.
thurin
Wanderer
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Hopefully I'm not opening/reopening a can of worms. For those of you that prefer a thin, zero grind convex, what are the primary uses for these knives? Do they hold up to wood work and batoning? Using them as skinners? I'm honestly just looking for info - I don't have a dog in the fight.
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I use them for everything (batoning, skinning, food prep and wood work). The zero grind doesn't have to be thin or fragile (it can be as thick or thin as the maker wants it); my kitchen knives have very thin zero ground convex edges in pretty hard steel so I wouldn't baton with them
I mainly prefer the zero grind for better cutting performance (no shoulder after the edge), but I think it looks better as well
I mainly prefer the zero grind for better cutting performance (no shoulder after the edge), but I think it looks better as well
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There is no difference for primary uses of knives with these bevel differences. Both can be used for anything. I make the knife the way the majority of folks will be able to sharpen it. Zero convexes are great, but have to be sharpened the convex way. You can sharpen knives with micro bevels any way you are comfortable doing it. Its a lot easier to sharpen a micro beveled knife without scratching up the whole bevel. Can you imagine the clean up and re-mark service increase if I was zeroing and each knife was scratched all to hell as the user learned (or failed to learn) to convex a knife?
I don't mind folks taking the knife, and making the edge their own. I encourage it. I set the knife up so it is usable for most folks. I get it sharp. For folks to depend on the original edge and refuse to put their own work onto their tool makes no sense to me. If you like to feel the knife sing through rolling papers paper, please feel free to polish the edge to 1500 grit. If you prefer a zero, start at 220 grit and work the shoulder off. Then go up the grits till you feel good about the edge.
I use them for everything (batoning, skinning, food prep and wood work). The zero grind doesn't have to be thin or fragile (it can be as thick or thin as the maker wants it); my kitchen knives have very thin zero ground convex edges in pretty hard steel so I wouldn't baton with them
I mainly prefer the zero grind for better cutting performance (no shoulder after the edge), but I think it looks better as well
:thumbup: I totally agree with this NoFair on this one. Convex does it all, but blade to blade and use to use the exact shape of your convex geometry will vary.
I also agree with Andy here: the knife is yours so make it your own and put on whatever edge suits you best. The way he sharpens the knives makes sense and works well for many people in many uses and beyond that the fact that it's encouraged to "make the knife your own", should that be what you want, once you do own it is really excellent. It's great to see a maker whose knives are so good looking pushing their use so hard. These sure are hard working knives, and they feel better in the hand than any other tool I've ever owned.
Thanks Fiddleback
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In my opinion, with Andy's knives. You will get one that is VERY sharp - he puts a small microbevel on the leanest of his convex's. I am, personally, not a fan of this. After about an hour of work (and I am anal as all get out) I have a full convex edge with no worries or damage. I don't care that Andy sends his knives out this way. Honestly, learning how to sharpen a full convex edge without jacking up the geometry takes time. Most people do not want to spend the time to learn this - so - they go back to the tried and true double (micro) bevel.
Whatever. I care not for what YOU do with your knife.
With that said - I like a full convex on my convex knives - a double bevel on my flat ground knives - and I like a full scandi on my scandi knives. Rick used to always say that a Scandi with a double convex is like training wheels on a Harley - and I tend to agree.
This is all preference. Here is what I know - good geometry - is good geometry - no matter the edge or grind type. I have a Laconico double bevel that I like just as much as my Fiddleback Convex Arete, that I like just as much as my Fiddleback Scandi Arete, that I like just as much as my ML Kephart (Convex).
A good makes makes a good knife and, for me, the two biggest things that contribute to that is geometry and heat treat.
TF
P.S. I would say that BRKT grinds are a little fatter - yes - but I ALWAYS make a knife mine - so that means tweaking the geometry a bit on some of their knives.
With that said - I got a Gunny (rampless) back from the spa a while back (let's not ask what happened to it) and I LOVED LOVED the geometry they send me. Razor out of the box - and looked perfect. So, who knows.
Andy does a slight fat Convex Geometry for my tastes - but - I would SO rather take a little material off a blade than put some back on. And I know a LOT of people who love his geometry out of the box. Again - preference.
For instance - that double beveled convex at the beginning of this thread makes me want to punch a kitten - but - I know Mist gets a LOT of use out of his knife - so who give is a shit what I think of HIS knife. Is he happy - then shit - I don't care if he made it a serrated edge. Plus - look at his double bevel - it is polished, even, and well done - I bet that thing cuts a dream. Whatever works for you. I love using a small convex sharpening kit in the field - and he uses a small stone. Bitchin'.
Whatever. I care not for what YOU do with your knife.
With that said - I like a full convex on my convex knives - a double bevel on my flat ground knives - and I like a full scandi on my scandi knives. Rick used to always say that a Scandi with a double convex is like training wheels on a Harley - and I tend to agree.
This is all preference. Here is what I know - good geometry - is good geometry - no matter the edge or grind type. I have a Laconico double bevel that I like just as much as my Fiddleback Convex Arete, that I like just as much as my Fiddleback Scandi Arete, that I like just as much as my ML Kephart (Convex).
A good makes makes a good knife and, for me, the two biggest things that contribute to that is geometry and heat treat.
TF
P.S. I would say that BRKT grinds are a little fatter - yes - but I ALWAYS make a knife mine - so that means tweaking the geometry a bit on some of their knives.
With that said - I got a Gunny (rampless) back from the spa a while back (let's not ask what happened to it) and I LOVED LOVED the geometry they send me. Razor out of the box - and looked perfect. So, who knows.
Andy does a slight fat Convex Geometry for my tastes - but - I would SO rather take a little material off a blade than put some back on. And I know a LOT of people who love his geometry out of the box. Again - preference.
For instance - that double beveled convex at the beginning of this thread makes me want to punch a kitten - but - I know Mist gets a LOT of use out of his knife - so who give is a shit what I think of HIS knife. Is he happy - then shit - I don't care if he made it a serrated edge. Plus - look at his double bevel - it is polished, even, and well done - I bet that thing cuts a dream. Whatever works for you. I love using a small convex sharpening kit in the field - and he uses a small stone. Bitchin'.
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Secondary bevel on a full convex drives me shithouse too man. I have a brkt Canadian special , man that thing CUTS, I spent about a solid hour knocking the shoulders off my bush fingers secondary. For some reason I get it perfect on one side, but the other I never seem to hold it steep enough, so I wind up with a tall secondary on one side. I don't really think there's any harm done, just have to take more material off higher on that side. TIME CONSUMING