Zodiac Killer Knife

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Any notes on thickness of spine?

A 12 inch blade makes for a long, noticable knife. I have several in that blade length and they are more like short swords....

An Old Hickory knife was the first one to come to mind when you said riveted wood handle. But I don't know about the 12 inch blade and fairly narrow blade width. Really, any knife could be sharpened on both sides.

So many old well sharpened generic kitchen/utility knives from that time would match the description.

Especially with conflicting descriptions of a bayonett or a bread knife.

A serrated edge would have been identifiable in the wounds left.
 
Without getting too off topic, the Zodiac case, as a whole, has become so overwrought with bad info that any clear direction of an investigation can be troublesome. Any evidence, now, is all circumstantial. The time frame has eliminated eye witnesses, degraded physical evidence, etc. It is still an open case in Vallejo, CA and S.F., though neither have any investigators assigned to it. Arthur Leigh Allen didnt do it. I have a good suspect, but can't name him due to my job, but even that is based on circumstantial evidence, and he died in the mid '90's.
 
DocJD said:
I don't see this perp as being any great experienced military expert in knife combat .

"Tied up and stabbed six times and lived " , indicates to me a rank amateur , not an experienced military knife expert . Not if the intent was to kill .
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He probably slipped up in the heat of the moment. I can’t put myself in this dirtbag’s mindframe but sometimes people just survive things shockingly.

I believe this was his first murder where he claimed them as the zodiac killer.

We will likely never be able to discern which knife he used in all honesty. Especially based on a description that could fit so many knives.
 
The description is too vague. It could be a bayonet, it could be a kitchen knife, it could be a homemade or theater knife.

I've always thought the bayonet thought was the right one. There were millions of them available in surplus stores. They are stout, longer than most knives of the period, and narrow. A 3/4" to 1" width at that length is narrow for most knives, sans some daggers and bayonets. Also the majority of bayos are ground for stabbing and may include false edges/swedges, double edges, or just general tapering to the point. They are usually ground and left with obtuse edges, which would lead to more stabbing vs cutting/slashing. If I recall correctly, he mostly used a thrusting attack, with little to no slashing.

Also the scabbard being described as maybe wood, leads me to think bayonet too. You see wood, metal, fiberglas, heavy leather reenforced, canvas over metal, wood, etc.... scabbards in bayonet design. You seldom see rigid scabbards in commercial knives of the period. And wearable wood scabbards were rare in homemade knives of the period too (although common in Asia knives that may have been brought back by returning soldiers).

A small or no cross guard isn't a big deal. Lots get cut off or were small to begin with.
 
Tjstampa said:
Do any of the autopsy reports indicate the depth of the wounds or knife width?
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Safe for viewing, nothing graphic -

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=79 .

This page gives the doctor's opinion on weapon at bottom - http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/ga...Lake_Berryessa_-_Shepard_Autopsy_Report_3.jpg .

Hartnell and Shepard are the only confirmed Zodiac stabbing victims. Hartnell survived, and I've never seen a medical report detail the length and depth of the wounds on him.
 
Chaucer1 said:
"...also stated that he was wearing a knife in a case (on belt) on his right side, near front of trousers. Knife description: Appeared to be a long bread knife, 12" long blade, 3/4" wide, hardwood handle, two brass rivets holding handing in place, cotton surgical tape wrapped approximately 1" around handle of knife. Knife case possibly made of wood."

A couple of notes: first, the knife has been described as both a bread knife, a bayonet, and homemade knife. It also did not have a crossguard. According to the coroner's report, it appeared as if the blade was sharpened on both sides. My uninformed opinion is that a bread knife would be ineffective as a stabbing weapon.
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Autopsy notes:
"Dr. DE PETRIS further stated that after examining the wounds inflicted on Miss SHEPARD it was his opinion that the weapon used would be from nine to eleven inches in length, one inch in width and possibly sharpened on both sides on the top of the blade similar to a bayonet type weapon. In addition the wounds indicated it would be a heavy or sturdy type blade."

Putting this together, first we can safely assume that the eyewitness description of a "long bread knife" was incorrect. My thinking is that the person wasn't all that familiar with long kitchen knives and the only long kitchen knife they knew about was a bread knife. I don't think they would have mistaken a bayonet for a bread knife, I think they mistook a long carving knife for a bread knife.

The 12" long and 3/4" wide blade is subjective because they didn't have a ruler to hold up against it. The doctor performing the autopsy could actually measure the wounds and come up with a more objective opinion on the dimensions.

Since cotton surgical tape was wrapped around 1" of the handle, it is very possible that there was another rivet under the tape.

I just happen to have a knife that fits the bill. It is a rather sturdy carving knife, plenty stiff enough to use to stab deep wounds. And it has a 1" wide blade exactly. My wife thought it was a bread knife, BTW. I can easily see how someone would think that the blade was a foot long.

n6kPc8s.jpg
 
The Robert Graysmith Zodiac book is an excellent read for anyone interested in this topic.

I also think the killer used a large kitchen knife similar to to what Old Hickory or Chicago cutlery made.
 
Bigfattyt said:
Especially with conflicting descriptions of a bayonett or a bread knife.
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Who described it as a bayonet? In the autopsy notes it said "possibly sharpened on both sides on the top of the blade similar to a bayonet type weapon." Which is a far cry from saying it was a bayonet.

I read that as "possibly had a false edge".
 
We do not know if it had a guard or not. Here's the actual page from the files describing the knife (bottom second paragraph) -

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport24.html .

While it doesn't mention a guard, it also doesn't rule one out. Perhaps it wasn't asked about, perhaps it was small enough to be over looked, etc..... Too much time has passed to rule one in or out.
 
No, I'm not part of the original investigation. I imagine all of those folks are dead or retired at this point. I'm part of an academic working group researching the case.

One of the suggestions is that the knife used was a tanto blade which is used in Japanese martial arts. However, now you are getting closer to an actual sword rather than a knife.

So, to clarify:

* The knife used had a long blade (9" to 12")
*blade was thin (3/4" to 1")
*blade was double edged at least at the tip
*blade made no wound that would indicate that it was serrated, so not serrated
* had a hardwood handle with two visible brass rivets
*handle also had cotton surgical tape wrapped around the handle
*carried in what looked like a wooden sheath attached to belt
* described as similar to a "bread knife" or "bayonet"
* described as "heavy" by coroner, so not a flimsy blade

BTW, thanks again for all of the responses. Very helpful and greatly appreciated.
 
Tanto could explain the wooden sheath, but not sure how available tantos were back then

0106857450b_john_lee_schwert_shirasaya_o-tanto.jpg
 
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It was worn on a belt, that's a problem, unless the saya is modified. Also double metal rivets/pins in the handle is another sticking point against it being tanto, unless he modified it in an American way.
 
The cotton surgical tape along with the blade shape description could indicate that the entire handle was at one point wrapped in a cloth wrap exposing two of the bolts underneath:
7afefb29a59e584f3cd7199fa43cafc995f0d985.jpg
 
The Old Hickory knife definitely fits parts of the description. The only sticking points (no pun intended) are that the sticking knife blade was too short (6"), and the fact of using a sheath for a kitchen knife.
 
Chaucer1 said:
The Old Hickory knife definitely fits parts of the description. The only sticking points (no pun intended) are that the sticking knife blade was too short (6"), and the fact of using a sheath for a kitchen knife.
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Zodiac wore a homemade costume during that stabbing so it's not much of a stretch to think he was capable of making a sheath for a kitchen knife.
 
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