ZT 561 vs Hinderer xm 18

I like the thinner/higher ground design of the zt's that still have strength through the tip. They cut better, though slicer grind on the xm may have fixed that since I only owned spantos a few years ago.
 
I hate the useless choil on the XM and I just didn't feel the fit and finish were all that great. CRK knives haw much fit and finish in my opinion. I got a second thinking maybe I would like it more the second time around. Nope.
 
shooterpunk said:
I hate the useless choil on the XM and I just didn't feel the fit and finish were all that great. CRK knives haw much fit and finish in my opinion. I got a second thinking maybe I would like it more the second time around. Nope.
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Weren't you aware of the "useless choil" before you bought the knife? I'm not trying to be a dick at all, I'm just trying to understand.

Is it possible you had fake XM's? I've had 4 of them, and literally all 4 had better fit and finish that most customs I've handled. I've never heard of anyone complaining of Hinderer's F&F honestly. I have seen plenty of people who have never owned them complain about this and that, but never someone who actually owned one. Finish is subjective to an extent I guess, but the fit on Hinderer's knives are on par with CRK all day.

I'm curious to hear the problems you had with the F&F. :)
 
My Gen 3 XM18 was pretty good but not perfect. The weak detent and way to many close calls with it coming open was one reason I sold it. That and the fact that the secondary market prices were going up quickly.
 
I like my XM-18, but I think I like the ZT0561 better. I hate the detent on the XM-18 and it makes for a weak flipper. Yes, it can be flipped with good technique or a little wrist action, but the ZT flips waaaaay better with the stronger dentent and the KVT pivot. I sold all but one 1 of my XM-18's and I won't sell the one I still have as it is a non flipper and I prefer that when it comes to the XM. I must say that I don't have the opportunity to buy XM's at table price. If I did, I would probably have quite a few. It's hard to pass up the ZT at its price point though. You get a lot of options and something near on par with the XM-18 all without paying an arm and a leg.

I just don't see the XM-18 as being in a whole different league than the ZT. I don't see any major differences in what the XM can offer that the ZT can't. Bigger standoffs and a beefier pivot doesn't sell it for me. I'd rather have more cutting edge, better retention, and a smoother flipper at a cheaper price while being more readily available to the general public.
 
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You can always turn around and sell the Hinderer for three times what you paid for it thanks to their whack sales model. I say order two Hinderers, sell one; then you basically got a free Hinderer.
 
I didn't know about it the first time. Sorry if I'm not a Hinderer fanboy, his knives are worth the price he asks but not the outlandish prices people pay.

Both were real as they came from him.

I just prefer CRK and Strider. Sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings.
 
I would do like the majority of first responers do, buy one at Rick's special pricing then flip it for two to three times the original price to other knife buyers who really want to own a Hinderer to use.
 
Final Option said:
I would do like the majority of first responers do, buy one at Rick's special pricing then flip it for two to three times the original price to other knife buyers who really want to own a Hinderer to use.
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Indeed that is exactly what happens. Maybe someday the Hinderer crowd will wake up and just take orders like everyone else. They can still give priority/discounts to LEOs, first responders, etc.
 
mctrinket said:
Indeed that is exactly what happens. Maybe someday the Hinderer crowd will wake up and just take orders like everyone else. They can still give priority/discounts to LEOs, first responders, etc.
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Did you see their recent change in policy? Rob Orlando:

Rick decided years ago to stop taking orders directly for XM folders, but left it open for military, law enforcement, fire, EMT/EMS personnel so they had quick access to tools they require in the field. He also implemented a 10% discount to help out even further because we know the pay scale for most of these folks isn't too high............Fast forward to today, and for the most part it has been a success, but recently we've noticed more abuse of the system than ever before. We are now prioritizing who we take orders from based on if you have ordered from us in the past, and the frequency. If you are someone who gets in on every batch, expect to go to the end of line, and our inventory will decide if we sell you another. First time orders will get the priority, if there are knives left after those orders are processed we will address folks that have purchased previously. Also, if you flip it the day you received it, there is damn good chance you won't see another from us directly, because you took a knife out of the hands of someone that could have used it. It's certainly your knife to do what you want with it, but that is not why Rick came up with the system and offered the discount.
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A random shot of a Hinderer.

Yes it was expensive but boy does it satisfy my knife "wants"

An absolutely awesome knife with a sh#$load of detent.

IMG_4272.jpg
 
Biginboca said:
It makes sense to get the xm18 because you can get the discount and flip it if you don't like it. But after owning 5 or 6 xm18's I definitely like the zt better, both the 0550 and 0560. When I bought my xm's I loved them but back then the zt's weren't around. The 0560 is incredible, easily as good as the xm18 and IMO as good or better machined. The inside of the ti slab is relieved for weight savings, the handles are contoured, the clip is a low rider, the pivot has bearings, the steel is Elmax which is as good as what Rick uses.

The 0560 is a technological powerhouse that has everything the xm would if it were designed today and not years ago, IMO.
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mctrinket said:
You can always turn around and sell the Hinderer for three times what you paid for it thanks to their whack sales model. I say order two Hinderers, sell one; then you basically got a free Hinderer.
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kreole said:
Did you see their recent change in policy? Rob Orlando:
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Thanks kreole. This is the attitude that has made Rick clamp down on his sales policy for "everyone" even us previous owners who are eligible. The Hinderer is beginning to surpass CRK quality IMHO. That may not be yours. I own both so I concede they're quite different.

The Sebenza (my favorite) is extremely meticulous in build quality but so is the XM-18/24 - plus you can flip them open with a slight roll of the wrist with plenty of authority.

I bought a ZT0561 and I like this knife. For the $$ it's an absolute steel, I mean steal :D. It offers some of the quality of an XM but not all of it IMO. I look at it and wonder why I have it when the knife it was designed to resemble is sitting next to me. If you can't afford an XM-24 or hate choils then ZTs are for you!!
 
kreole said:
Did you see their recent change in policy? Rob Orlando:
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Rick decided years ago to stop taking orders directly for XM folders, but left it open for military, law enforcement, fire, EMT/EMS personnel so they had quick access to tools they require in the field. He also implemented a 10% discount to help out even further because we know the pay scale for most of these folks isn't too high............Fast forward to today, and for the most part it has been a success, but recently we've noticed more abuse of the system than ever before. We are now prioritizing who we take orders from based on if you have ordered from us in the past, and the frequency. If you are someone who gets in on every batch, expect to go to the end of line, and our inventory will decide if we sell you another. First time orders will get the priority, if there are knives left after those orders are processed we will address folks that have purchased previously. Also, if you flip it the day you received it, there is damn good chance you won't see another from us directly, because you took a knife out of the hands of someone that could have used it. It's certainly your knife to do what you want with it, but that is not why Rick came up with the system and offered the discount.


I think someone who is using their discount at Hinderer to make a profit should never get another knife from Hinderer. I've bought one knife from them (XM-18 3.5) and when I ordered it, I asked if it was a one time offer and was told that it was not. This really surprised me. Someday I'm hoping to get a an XM 24 but I'm going to wait for a while. I really appreciate the offer that Rick and his crew have made to First Responders and I think its disgusting that people would abuse it.
 
kreole said:
Did you see their recent change in policy? Rob Orlando:
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So the abusers just get in line behind first-time buyers. I don't see that much of a change. They still get their knives and they still flip them for double-triple what they paid for one, they just have to wait a little longer (if at all).

But they probably don't wait at all. I know a firefighter and I was talking to him about it--and even with the discount he though the idea of spending that much on a knife--any knife--was flat-out crazy. How many military, law enforcement, fire, EMT/EMS personnel have you seen toting a Hinderer around? Not that many, in my experience. The only way they would even know about it is if they were a bit of a knife nut like the likes of us on here. Your average professional in these fields just wants a decent tool that gets the job done that they would not mind losing, breaking, throwing away, etc. Not many of them want to carry around and expensive knife that probably will not see all that much use since every single one of those professionals have professional tools and skill sets that train on those tools and last I looked none of them train using $400 knives.

So it's a bit of a canard, is my point. Seems like an admirable stance, Hinderer's sales model, but if you look a bit deeper into it, they are just trying to manufacture exclusivity and mystique. And it's been damned successful! Easiest way to make people want something is to tell them they can't have it!

I don't see why they can't take orders from everyone and prioritize authorized people for shipments--and limit the number of knives and individual can purchase to one a year or something. Problem solved! That way if you're a John Q. Public and you want a Hinderer knife, you either pay the ridiculous mark-ups...or you wait. The qualified people still get their knives first, yadda yadda yadda, the exploitive middle men are diminished significantly, and the knifemaker has steady work. Everyone wins!

The only way the price gouging is going to stop is if this broken system goes away.

It's a shame cuz their knives are pretty good. But nowhere near as superior as the fanboys would have you believe.
 
My XM-18's f&f is just as good, if not better than that of my Sebenza. I can see why people think the detent is a little weak though. But, I certainly don't think it's difficult to get it to flip well. It's actually no problem at all.
 
I hope Rick or Rob see posts like these, and put these people on their ban list. Ridiculous people are, ridiculous
Final Option said:
I would do like the majority of first responers do, buy one at Rick's special pricing then flip it for two to three times the original price to other knife buyers who really want to own a Hinderer to use.
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