ZT 561 vs Hinderer xm 18

It's true people shouldn't exploit getting his knives and them flipping them but the truth is is it happens and continue to happen when people can make an easy $500 on selling his knives.
 
I feel like the ZT models are his answer to the demand and price hike problem and iirc he's alluded to this by basicly saying, I can't keep up with demand so I partnered up with ZT who's production facility can handle way more than I can. We made a damn good product that will make my design and quality much more available. Not a direct quote but pretty much the jist of what he said. BTW owning a 561 I can tell you it's a DAMN good knife. My only complaint is that it's a little to large for my liking but the knife is gorgeous, bomb proof, and the F &F is fantastic. Can't ask for much more than that.
 
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I read it differently. Perhaps his model is intentional. He must know that many EMS are volunteer, or that lower enlisted/ cops etc. get paid crap. So he said WTH I'll throw them a gimmie and is now laughing at the aftermarket. I think Hinderer is just getting pissed that some guys are really milking and screwing others out of their chance.

I think that rational is sweet.
 
The responses here are interesting. For several yrs I seriously thought about getting a Hinderer, but kept dragging my feet to do so. I did that partly because I find it hard to pay that much for a knife (I've had & have a number of nice knives including CRK, Striders, customs, etc, but I traded into them) & partly because I felt that if I was going to take advantage of Rick's direct buy program, I was going to get a Hinderer model that I really wanted & NOT flip it. I personally think it's questionably ethical to take advantage of Rick's generosity & to do so several times (It would seem, anyways). I understand the lure, but doesn't it seem like certain people do it over & over? And I'm sure Hinderer management knows this & is bothered about it because of the stickie Rob posted.

As far as the ZT 0560/0561 vs the Hinderer XM-18/24, the ZT provides excellent value for the money. Contoured G10 & Ti frame-lock with ball-bearing pivot, low-rider clip, & Elmax steel for around $250 (Give or take about $25 or so) is a lot of value.

Now that I finally got a XM-18 (A non-flipper Slicer grind 3" model), I have to say they're different, which should be expected. While I fully understand that the ZT shouldn't be held in comparison to the XM series, people will. I actually find the ZT 0550/0551 closer in design to the XM-18 3.5" than the 0560/0561.

As far as F&F, that is interesting. Looking over the XM-18, machine marks are more visible compared to any of the CRK folders that I've had, including the small 21 Insingo & Umnumzaan that I currently have. I don't see it as an issue in the sense that the Hinderer seems more of a "hard use" folder instead of a semi work of art. I feel the XM-18 3" model is a "tougher" folder & will handle more use/abuse than a small Sebenza.

While I didn't get a flipper model, I've handled the 3.5" flipper model & have to say, the 560's a smoother flipper than the XM-18, but I would think that that is to be expected considering the ZT's ZVT pivot system.
 
I have both, and while the ZT 561 is a nice knife, the XM is in another league. Since as an EMT you can get an XM directly from Rick at an unbelievably reasonable price you should not hesitate to do so.
 
Another reason for getting the Hinderer XM is return on investment. It is not likely to go down in value as Rick can only produce a limited amount of them. Should you decide to sell it at some point, you will at least recoup your investment (I am sure that you will do much better than that), even in a used condition.
 
In your position , I would get the XM because you can use it for a while and decide if it suits your needs without having any noticeable depreciation.
 
김원진;10880370 said:
I hope Rick or Rob see posts like these, and put these people on their ban list. Ridiculous people are, ridiculous[/QUOTE]

Do you realize how ignorant you sound with your statement as a whole....So a person shouldn't ever buy something for cheaper just to turn around/flip it for a profit....?? Yeah everyone should be put in jail for doing something that crazy.

If people wanna spend 2-3x markup for a knife then that's their problem....Not the seller's. No one is twisting their arm to buy it. They buy it for that price because they WANT to, PERIOD!! If you want to get mad at someone then get mad at the people buying these knives at 2-3x markup. They are the ones driving the price up. It's smart for someone to buy goods and services for one price then turn around and sell it for 2-3x the money if the market is there. You just don't see it that way since it's treading on your knife hobby and impacts your desires to buy said knives.

It's freakin economics 101.
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czombie said:
김원진;10880370 said:
I hope Rick or Rob see posts like these, and put these people on their ban list. Ridiculous people are, ridiculous[/QUOTE]

Do you realize how ignorant you sound with your statement as a whole....So a person shouldn't ever buy something for cheaper just to turn around/flip it for a profit....?? Yeah everyone should be put in jail for doing something that crazy.

If people wanna spend 2-3x markup for a knife then that's their problem....Not the seller's. No one is twisting their arm to buy it. They buy it for that price because they WANT to, PERIOD!! If you want to get mad at someone then get mad at the people buying these knives at 2-3x markup. They are the ones driving the price up. It's smart for someone to buy goods and services for one price then turn around and sell it for 2-3x the money if the market is there. You just don't see it that way since it's treading on your knife hobby and impacts your desires to buy said knives.

It's freakin economics 101.
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While the idea that taking advantage of a "loophole" isn't criminal, it's the frustration that people are taking advantage of a privilage. Personally, I'm sorry to see Military & 1st Responders blatantly take advantage of it, too. Mainly because it's going to ruin it for the others that used that privilage to get a knife they otherwise couldn't (That's what I did).

Aside from all that, the XM series is definitely a better made knife than the ZT collaborations, but that's to be expected. The XMs are overbuilt & given the OPs ability to be able to buy a Hinderer at retail, I'd recommend it (I did). It is a better knife than the 0560/0561. I certainly won't say to buy it & flip it, that's for sure.

Good luck with your choice.
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czombie said:
김원진;10880370 said:
I hope Rick or Rob see posts like these, and put these people on their ban list. Ridiculous people are, ridiculous[/QUOTE]

Do you realize how ignorant you sound with your statement as a whole....So a person shouldn't ever buy something for cheaper just to turn around/flip it for a profit....?? Yeah everyone should be put in jail for doing something that crazy.

If people wanna spend 2-3x markup for a knife then that's their problem....Not the seller's. No one is twisting their arm to buy it. They buy it for that price because they WANT to, PERIOD!! If you want to get mad at someone then get mad at the people buying these knives at 2-3x markup. They are the ones driving the price up. It's smart for someone to buy goods and services for one price then turn around and sell it for 2-3x the money if the market is there. You just don't see it that way since it's treading on your knife hobby and impacts your desires to buy said knives.

It's freakin economics 101.
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No it isn't economics 101. It's abusing a system that is in place to help those that serve their country and communities. It also goes against the spirit of this community. If you want to talk economics, then people need to start paying taxes on the resale and stop asking for the extra 3-5% "to cover fees". Ther is something larger here that you are clearly missing and that is basic respect for a community of knife enthusiasts. Some people have a problem with ethics, if you can't understand it then you might be one of those people.
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RevDevil hit the nail on the head!
Hinderer's business model began as a generous opportunity to give back to the public service community, but the greedy skidmarks taking advantage of this model have ruined XM's for those of us that refuse to pay double.
And what keeps people from having their EMT friends order knives for them to turn around and sell?
I appreciate discounts for public servants, but there are much better ways to do so.
My ZT 560 saved me a lot of $ and brought me even more satisfaction when my buddy complained that it flipped so much easier and smoother than his gen 4 xm18.
The xm is top-notch, but definitely doesn't have the ZT beat in every regard.
 
I hate how a few bad apples ruined the bunch for us in regards to the discounted XM's... I have been emailing Rob for a year waiting to get an XM-18 or XM-24 (to actually use, keep, and enjoy myself) but now the discount is gone...

I DO NOT expect any kind of handout or discount, but it's just kinda crappy that a few guys got selfish and ruined it for everyone in the service.

Sorry to get off topic... I do have a 0561 and I'm really liking it so far. I'll still be getting an XM sometime in the future.
 
I don't think anyone is really, truly surprised that people are abusing the system, but it is disappointing. Also, I think other than the people abusing the system, we can all say that it's pretty wrong. No one can really argue with that. I can understand ordering one and deciding it's not for you and selling it. Happens all the time, but buying to flip when given an advantage over others is clearly unethical. Oh well.
 
jimmyjohnjohn said:
What do you mean? Rick no longer sells directly to first responders at the $350 price?
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Correct. He posted back in May, I believe, that Military/1st Responders will no longer get the 10% discount AND that if they're seeing flipping it, it'll be the last one they get (I'm hoping this is true, but fully understand it's hard to enforce).

In other words, if you qualify, I highly recommend you get one now, before even the chance of getting one at retail goes out the window (Which is still a good deal, IMHO).

I understand people aren't surprised, but honestly, the degree that it's done is surprising. Either some people managed to acquire a 3" tumble finished Slicer grind XM-18s, or they're flipping them, since that is what this last batch were. I got mine yesterday & love it, but I saw some F/S (BNIB) during this past week, which I believe coincides with the new shipment that went out.
 
RevDevil said:
czombie said:
No it isn't economics 101. It's abusing a system that is in place to help those that serve their country and communities. It also goes against the spirit of this community. If you want to talk economics, then people need to start paying taxes on the resale and stop asking for the extra 3-5% "to cover fees". Ther is something larger here that you are clearly missing and that is basic respect for a community of knife enthusiasts. Some people have a problem with ethics, if you can't understand it then you might be one of those people.
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Whether or not you like it...It is economics. Ethical (now that's a different story) . I don't like it anymore than you or anyone else does for that matter, but I don't feel bad for Joe Blo spending way too much for a knife because he doesn't want to wait on a waiting list, etc. Jo Schmo EMT knows he can sell said knife with a markup because people just have to have their knives when they want them, so why wouldn't he jack the price up when they are selling for those prices. If you want to preach ethics, then preach them to the buyers just as much as the sellers. Hinderer's knives for the most part are "wants"....not "needs"

It's just as unethical for Jo Blo to buy said knife ridiculously marked up as it is for Jo Schmo EMT to take advantage of his position and sell it. It goes both ways.
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czombie said:
Whether or not you like it...It is economics. Ethical (now that's a different story) . I don't like it anymore than you or anyone else does for that matter, but I don't feel bad for Joe Blo spending way too much for a knife because he doesn't want to wait on a waiting list, etc. Jo Schmo EMT knows he can sell said knife with a markup because people just have to have their knives when they want them, so why wouldn't he jack the price up when they are selling for those prices. If you want to preach ethics, then preach them to the buyers just as much as the sellers. Hinderer's knives for the most part are "wants"....not "needs"

It's just as unethical for Jo Blo to buy said knife ridiculously marked up as it is for Jo Schmo EMT to take advantage of his position and sell it. It goes both ways.
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Hey czombie - I recommend that we discuss the XM-18 versus the ZT0561 and not get off track. I bought a ZT056o and own a few XM's. I don't think there's any true comparison other than the ZT's have the Hinderer look, but they feel light and not as well made as an XM to me. If you had an XM-24 next to a ZT0561 you'd know what I mean.

That's not to say that the ZT offerings aren't fine flippers and worth the money for those desiring a Hinderer but are unwilling to pay the high price or don't qualify for one directly. Buy one!
 
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I have the ZT, I love it, I use it for edc, I'm a carpenter and I do lots of other contracting for my customers so I use it pretty hard. ZT has so many good attibutes, great steel, easy to sharpen razor sharp, feels great in hand, lightweight, easy to open so I have no complaints at all. I've never had a Hinderer though.
 
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