1095 vs 15N20, all things being unequal.

Yeah obviously it's all down to what you're working with and how/why.

I honestly think 1095 has lost a lot of it's good rep by all the excessively soft, thick-edged, beater production knives, to the point that lots of people don't like it and think it's a crap performing steel. The reality is, it can be near the king of "simple high carbon" steel (the exception being Hitachi White or certain batches of W2, which are specialty and much rarer) if good stock with refined grain and the appropriate geometry. That, and it's application as a near optimal cheap spring, is why it became so ubiquitous in the market initially, decades ago.


I surface grind anything I work regardless, so no amount of clean stock is saving me time there, as an example, but I can see how it would for different methods and equipment, definitely. That of course is also one of the reasons industry utilizes 1095 though, you can get it from thousands of suppliers, in any configuration you could ever want, for less than half the price of 15n20. Of course that requires you to have an idea who to deal with, and meet minimums, etc. So for the average maker, may not hold much value or appeal...


Ultimately it's highly circumstantial, preferential, and even intuitive why we use what we use. Certainly nothing wrong with any of the steels any of us might consider.

Funny to see 52100 mentioned, because it's a steel I have a high regard for, but I also think it's one of the most potentially complicated steels to really optimize. It's a bitch to forge, hell on tooling and consumables, and a bitch to hand finish. It has a massively wide potential range of performance based on HT, outside of industry baselines. i.e. it can be utterly mediocre, or some of the most insane performance ever witnessed. I have great respect for this steel because I've seen it do shit I've never seen done with other alloys, but I also know from the little I've worked with it, that I haven't begun to truly understand the metallurgical complexities to really maximize it's potential.

It's much like A2 and D2 in my mind. Where looking at the results somebody like Nathan Carothers can get with extensive experimentation, understanding, and grueling refrinement, make it obvious the potential, yet then seeing "by the numbers" examples inspire little, if any faith in it.
 
The one thing about 1095, aside from being less consistent the QC department compared say W1, W2 and the Hitachi and B-U steels, is that it is actually easier to get "wrong" in the HT that say 1084/85 or 15N20 because it is a very shallow hardening hypereutectoid steel. As you point out, it is cheap to acquire, but does not respond well to less than ideal HT regimens, especially for knives. To my mind, if these knife companies are looking for "tough' cheap blades, 5160 would be a better inexpensive and readily available option, although you can have similar QC issues.
javand said:
Yeah obviously it's all down to what you're working with and how/why.

I honestly think 1095 has lost a lot of it's good rep by all the excessively soft, thick-edged, beater production knives, to the point that lots of people don't like it and think it's a crap performing steel. The reality is, it can be near the king of "simple high carbon" steel (the exception being Hitachi White or certain batches of W2, which are specialty and much rarer) if good stock with refined grain and the appropriate geometry. That, and it's application as a near optimal cheap spring, is why it became so ubiquitous in the market initially, decades ago.


I surface grind anything I work regardless, so no amount of clean stock is saving me time there, as an example, but I can see how it would for different methods and equipment, definitely. That of course is also one of the reasons industry utilizes 1095 though, you can get it from thousands of suppliers, in any configuration you could ever want, for less than half the price of 15n20. Of course that requires you to have an idea who to deal with, and meet minimums, etc. So for the average maker, may not hold much value or appeal...


Ultimately it's highly circumstantial, preferential, and even intuitive why we use what we use. Certainly nothing wrong with any of the steels any of us might consider.

Funny to see 52100 mentioned, because it's a steel I have a high regard for, but I also think it's one of the most potentially complicated steels to really optimize. It's a bitch to forge, hell on tooling and consumables, and a bitch to hand finish. It has a massively wide potential range of performance based on HT, outside of industry baselines. i.e. it can be utterly mediocre, or some of the most insane performance ever witnessed. I have great respect for this steel because I've seen it do shit I've never seen done with other alloys, but I also know from the little I've worked with it, that I haven't begun to truly understand the metallurgical complexities to really maximize it's potential.

It's much like A2 and D2 in my mind. Where looking at the results somebody like Nathan Carothers can get with extensive experimentation, understanding, and grueling refrinement, make it obvious the potential, yet then seeing "by the numbers" examples inspire little, if any faith in it.
Click to expand...
 
jdm61 said:
The one thing about 1095, aside from being less consistent the QC department compared say W1, W2 and the Hitachi and B-U steels, is that it is actually easier to get "wrong" in the HT that say 1084/85 or 15N20 because it is a very shallow hardening hypereutectoid steel. As you point out, it is cheap to acquire, but does not respond well to less than ideal HT regimens, especially for knives. To my mind, if these knife companies are looking for "tough' cheap blades, 5160 would be a better inexpensive and readily available option, although you can have similar QC issues.
Click to expand...


I agree wholeheartedly about the HT issue. It's not that it's tricky steel to HT, it's just that you need a fast process, it's easy for people to screw up, however in regards to the production knives, I think it's really almost entirely the issue of targeting excessively low hardness, in pursuit of toughness, to accommodate the crazy warranties, as I mentioned above. I say this because my impression is that most of these companies are sourcing HT, presumably by reputable outfits, and honestly, any heat treating company can HT 1095 with expected results, there's not a lot of room to play with 1095's HT regime. However I don't think there's ever a situation in which 1095 is a good steel choice, where it should be less than 60 RC. If you're going lower, needing toughness, definitely 5160 or something like that would be a much better choice, and of course, 15n20, even at 60 where you're needing something tougher. Although that's just my opinion, and I'm sure someone will disagree.

However in regard to the QC aspect of the steel itself, I'll say that I've gotten 1095 from numerous providers, always with certs, and the quality has been very consistent. Not sure if there were some bad batches floating about or something, and getting mystery steel from Admiral not-withstanding, I'd argue that it's much less likely to get wide variation from 1095 than any of the W steels, simply look at the allowable spec ranges. W1 and W2 have a HUGE range of allowable carbon content for example, where as 1095 has a pretty narrow band by AISI and SAE specs.

W2 gets a lot of love around here, and rightly so, it's my favorite steel, but in my case, that's specific to a few certain melts of the old Tremblay stock, i.e. Don Hanson's big rounds, and some of the small rounds and large drops. In each of these from the same source though, the chemical comp shows some pretty heavy swings. The stuff Aldo has currently (and even the first batch he had that so many had problems with), has a different spec. All well outside the variation I've seen from the handful of cert sheets I've seen on 1095 from different suppliers in the past few years.

I actually always cringe when I see someone recommending W1 to anybody here, since it can be so different batch to batch or supplier to supplier, and the likeliness of getting optimal results from following industry standard HT for it, is low. Of course if you found a good batch, dialed in the HT, and bought enough of it to last you a lifetime, you could get consistently great results. I don't think anybody should be using it as a one-off though, 1095, from almost any supplier, should offer better results with "by-the-book" HT.
 
javand said:
I agree wholeheartedly about the HT issue. It's not that it's tricky steel to HT, it's just that you need a fast process, it's easy for people to screw up, however in regards to the production knives, I think it's really almost entirely the issue of targeting excessively low hardness, in pursuit of toughness, to accommodate the crazy warranties, as I mentioned above. I say this because my impression is that most of these companies are sourcing HT, presumably by reputable outfits, and honestly, any heat treating company can HT 1095 with expected results, there's not a lot of room to play with 1095's HT regime. However I don't think there's ever a situation in which 1095 is a good steel choice, where it should be less than 60 RC. If you're going lower, needing toughness, definitely 5160 or something like that would be a much better choice, and of course, 15n20, even at 60 where you're needing something tougher. Although that's just my opinion, and I'm sure someone will disagree.

However in regard to the QC aspect of the steel itself, I'll say that I've gotten 1095 from numerous providers, always with certs, and the quality has been very consistent. Not sure if there were some bad batches floating about or something, and getting mystery steel from Admiral not-withstanding, I'd argue that it's much less likely to get wide variation from 1095 than any of the W steels, simply look at the allowable spec ranges. W1 and W2 have a HUGE range of allowable carbon content for example, where as 1095 has a pretty narrow band by AISI and SAE specs.

W2 gets a lot of love around here, and rightly so, it's my favorite steel, but in my case, that's specific to a few certain melts of the old Tremblay stock, i.e. Don Hanson's big rounds, and some of the small rounds and large drops. In each of these from the same source though, the chemical comp shows some pretty heavy swings. The stuff Aldo has currently (and even the first batch he had that so many had problems with), has a different spec. All well outside the variation I've seen from the handful of cert sheets I've seen on 1095 from different suppliers in the past few years.

I actually always cringe when I see someone recommending W1 to anybody here, since it can be so different batch to batch or supplier to supplier, and the likeliness of getting optimal results from following industry standard HT for it, is low. Of course if you found a good batch, dialed in the HT, and bought enough of it to last you a lifetime, you could get consistently great results. I don't think anybody should be using it as a one-off though, 1095, from almost any supplier, should offer better results with "by-the-book" HT.
Click to expand...

Aldo's current W2 for the last 4 years has been based on the HansonIII steel. There are minor differences in the elements, but it's quite similar. I sent a bit of Aldo's stock to Don, and he got Rc67 instead of Rc68. No one has complained with the W2 knives I make, and I did a lot of experimenting to dial in the heat treat. I would love to get my hands on some of Don's W2, but no one is selling.

1095 is a fine steel. It takes as much care to heat treat properly as W2 does, but it doesn't perform as well. O1, 52100, W2 all outperform it.

I use 1095 to give kitchen knife users an option with a hamon that is cheaper than W2.
 
javand said:
I agree wholeheartedly about the HT issue. It's not that it's tricky steel to HT, it's just that you need a fast process, it's easy for people to screw up, however in regards to the production knives, I think it's really almost entirely the issue of targeting excessively low hardness, in pursuit of toughness, to accommodate the crazy warranties, as I mentioned above. I say this because my impression is that most of these companies are sourcing HT, presumably by reputable outfits
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I had avoided mentioning any specific companies and I will still not mention them by name, but in case you are interested, I will give you a hint. Are you familiar with the company that "Spec ops prefer?" Google their shop tour video and take a look at the HT process they show. You might be a tad surprised. Contrast that with the shop tour video from R Murphy Knives who sell their "carbon steel" knives at a significantly lower price point.
 
Willie71 said:
Aldo's current W2 for the last 4 years has been based on the HansonIII steel. There are minor differences in the elements, but it's quite similar. I sent a bit of Aldo's stock to Don, and he got Rc67 instead of Rc68. No one has complained with the W2 knives I make, and I did a lot of experimenting to dial in the heat treat. I would love to get my hands on some of Don's W2, but no one is selling.

1095 is a fine steel. It takes as much care to heat treat properly as W2 does, but it doesn't perform as well. O1, 52100, W2 all outperform it.

I use 1095 to give kitchen knife users an option with a hamon that is cheaper than W2.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm definitely not making any judgements about Aldo's W2, I've heard good things about the recent stuff, I've simply never used it. My point was, that if you look at the AISI specs for all W-series steels, you'll see a much wider margin for alloy content than 1095. The only redeeming factor for W2 is that it's only readily available for most of us from one source at the moment. W1 on the other hand, is pretty common, and you've got no idea what you're getting unless you get certs. In fact, from what I understand, Aldo targeted the spec of what was considered to be the best of the Tremblay batches, but even that showed a pretty wide range of carbon content, batch to batch.


As I said, it's (W2) excellent (my favorite) steel, and in the factors I value, I consider it better than 1095 all around, but because of the cost/scarcity, and the color when etched, I don't favor it for damascus.

Would I use 1095 as mono-steel if(when) I ran out of good W2? Probably not, I'd be inclined to dive into high alloys likes O-1 and 52100, try my hand at the potentially great performance they offer when dialed to the max. 15n20, has some pretty specific properties that I see the appeal of, but for me, and the type of knives I'm making, don't really jive either. Nothing against it, just as with 1095, I'm inclined to go with something that offers a more specific advantage for the extra cost/trouble. Of course, that's from my perspective, of buying it bulk at wholesale cost compared to other options.

Ultimately though, I guess I'm feeling like 1095 has started to get a bit of a bad rap lately, I think sort of unfairly, mostly, because of exactly what the OP brought up, questionable application, by questionable production.

jdm, I'll look into what you're talking about, cause I do know who you refer to. I'll admit to being a bit "out of touch" when it comes to some of these production companies, as I don't watch many youtube vids. I probably should. Another thread recently made me aware of the Great Eastern shop videos, and as much as I was bored through most of it, I was mind-blown by a couple of processes they'd figured out, that apply directly to my methods, and seeing, is way better than visualizing based on interpretation of text.



I think ultimately I've digressed here I bit, I was just trying to explain to you guys in my initial post, from my sort of "in the middle" understanding, being a small, sole proprietor shop, with a larger than average (but still very small compared to most of the production shop) steel consumption, dealing on the lower end of the wholesale scale, and knowing some of the guys that have high production outfits, perspective, as to why 1095 is so ubiquitous. I think ultimately, it's been bad for the "brand" of 1095, but I think it's a bit unfounded.

IMO 1095 is really the baseline, simple, high carbon steel, and in that context, with the right construction and HT, I think it's really great, and underappreciated. I favor W2 and Hitachi White, only because it pushes that baseline to the max. I personally find 15n20 to be pushing more in the tough alloy direction, to the point that I'd consider other options, but that's just "my opinion". It certainly has no replacement or equal in my shop though, it's the second most used steel here, and a foundation of my business, so nothing but respect.

Ok I'm rambling again. ;)
 
I just want to add, and something I'm not sure I've mentioned, but I think is a big factor. Lately I've seen a desire here to increase the "brand value" of 15n20, I think because of the ubiquity of it among makers, and especially that we can get it second hand sometimes for next to nothing, however, I'm not personally seeing any indication in the market that it has any real brand value higher than 1095, certainly not more than 1084.

It doesn't have a bad rep, but it hasn't gained any wide-spread appeal yet either. 1095 is actually losing some ground in this department, and I'm seeing a gain with 15n20, so at some point it may become much more widely regarded as being something more than "great for damascus", but as you guys have indicated, that's going to pretty much require the availability of thicker stock.

Thing is, the intended target market for 15n20 didn't ever require thicker stock, and the entirety of the custom knife market, is a drop in the bucket comparatively.Also unfortunately, the sole provider of this material, is a somewhat gentrified, and seemingly traditional international corporation that is much more interested in securing large volume individual orders, than lots of smaller orders.


Thus begs the question, does 15n20 have the "brand" potential to out-value similar options, if it became available in more configurations? It's certainly possible, and maybe that's the ultimate point of this thread?
 
There is talk about expanding the thicker size range of 15N20 like Voestalpine did with AEB-L recently.From what we have heard from the former B-U/Voestalpine USA rep, their new strip steel plant in Austria makes such things easier than before. The fact that they have produced non-razor AEB-L stock at up to 5mm for the knife industry recently is a good sign of how they now view niche markets like ours. (Voestalpine is the current owner of B-U.) Those thicker AEB-L stock are sheet stock, not rolled strip. We already have 1/8 AEB-L and I don't know how much demand therefor that in the tractional 15N20 market. The .063,.072 and .090 seem to serve those big bandsaw blade markets.
javand said:
I just want to add, and something I'm not sure I've mentioned, but I think is a big factor. Lately I've seen a desire here to increase the "brand value" of 15n20, I think because of the ubiquity of it among makers, and especially that we can get it second hand sometimes for next to nothing, however, I'm not personally seeing any indication in the market that it has any real brand value higher than 1095, certainly not more than 1084.

It doesn't have a bad rep, but it hasn't gained any wide-spread appeal yet either. 1095 is actually losing some ground in this department, and I'm seeing a gain with 15n20, so at some point it may become much more widely regarded as being something more than "great for damascus", but as you guys have indicated, that's going to pretty much require the availability of thicker stock.

Thing is, the intended target market for 15n20 didn't ever require thicker stock, and the entirety of the custom knife market, is a drop in the bucket comparatively.Also unfortunately, the sole provider of this material, is a somewhat gentrified, and seemingly traditional international corporation that is much more interested in securing large volume individual orders, than lots of smaller orders.


Thus begs the question, does 15n20 have the "brand" potential to out-value similar options, if it became available in more configurations? It's certainly possible, and maybe that's the ultimate point of this thread?
Click to expand...
 
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the other contestant that is not mentioned is 80CrV2. it is imported as strip or sheet and is probably the steel used when you see the phrase " high carbon chrome vanadium steel" whether it is a blade or a wrench. I have used some 15N20, but stopped when I was able to find PGFS O-1 cheaper. on 52100, Roman Landes said on another forum "Today 60-70% of the worlds production of razor blades is made from non stainless materials such as 100Cr6 (52100)"
javand said:
Thing is, the intended target market for 15n20 didn't ever require thicker stock, and the entirety of the custom knife market, is a drop in the bucket comparatively.Also unfortunately, the sole provider of this material, is a somewhat gentrified, and seemingly traditional international corporation that is much more interested in securing large volume individual orders, than lots of smaller orders.
Click to expand...
I think this is the biggest handicap we have when looking for blade steel. Now if one has spare cash and the right machines, Bestar (https://www.bestar-steel.com/company/presentation/) imports all sorts of interesting steels BE2419 & BE2519 are similar to O7 and Blue#2 BE86=8670 and might be what AKS is importing. BE5634=15N20 BE2235=80CrV2
 
erik markman said:
I think O7 and Blue#2 are similar to 115w8. I could be wrong though.
115w8 is my favorite steel.
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1.2419 is 105WCr6, 1.2519 is 110WCrV5, so these steels are very similar in composition. BUT only BE2419 and BE2519 are available for sale in the US at sorta reasonable prices. I guess there is not enough demand for NJSteel or AKS to carry them. Bestar (770) 801-8855 will sell single sheets from their warehouse in Atlanta. the last quote on 1.2419 I got was 335$ for a sheet 2.5 x 210 x 1820mm.
 
Scott,the guy who was there before made noises like they didn't want that business, but now Jeff Sinko is in that job and he is much more accommodating assuming that he is permitted to be. That says we might now have a source not only for those tungsten blends but also nice, dark O2 for our damascus needs.
 
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Erik, have Achim/Lohmann cooked more batches of 115W8? It really is great stuff, but the problem was that the only source was his "fun smelt"
 
Very thankful for this thread and all of the great conversation in it. I have been trying to choose what steel to order for my first big order from NJ Steel Baron and had really settled on 1084, but unfortunately they have been out of stock in the .156 stock I want. I actually wanted thinner than .156 but that was their thinnest and I don't have a surface grinder (yet). Anyway, looking at his selection of 15N20... available in stock all the way up to .130! This is exactly what I'm looking for, and it's basically the same exact cost as the 1084 (I understand the 1084 stock was thicker, so the 15n20 is more $ for the steel). But at the same "cost per 48 inch bar" I am fine with this! I am putting in my order today!!! Hope ya'll dont mind if I ask some steel specific questions here... Excited to see how the patina compares to 1095 which I have a lot of experience using in the kitchen and field.
 
Aldo has 1084 .125 in stock.
Alpha knife supply also has 1084 now.
You'll save some on shipping with AKS.

PNWJimbo said:
Very thankful for this thread and all of the great conversation in it. I have been trying to choose what steel to order for my first big order from NJ Steel Baron and had really settled on 1084, but unfortunately they have been out of stock in the .156 stock I want. I actually wanted thinner than .156 but that was their thinnest and I don't have a surface grinder (yet). Anyway, looking at his selection of 15N20... available in stock all the way up to .130! This is exactly what I'm looking for, and it's basically the same exact cost as the 1084 (I understand the 1084 stock was thicker, so the 15n20 is more $ for the steel). But at the same "cost per 48 inch bar" I am fine with this! I am putting in my order today!!! Hope ya'll dont mind if I ask some steel specific questions here... Excited to see how the patina compares to 1095 which I have a lot of experience using in the kitchen and field.
Click to expand...
 
javand said:
I just want to add, and something I'm not sure I've mentioned, but I think is a big factor. Lately I've seen a desire here to increase the "brand value" of 15n20, I think because of the ubiquity of it among makers, and especially that we can get it second hand sometimes for next to nothing, however, I'm not personally seeing any indication in the market that it has any real brand value higher than 1095, certainly not more than 1084.

It doesn't have a bad rep, but it hasn't gained any wide-spread appeal yet either. 1095 is actually losing some ground in this department, and I'm seeing a gain with 15n20, so at some point it may become much more widely regarded as being something more than "great for damascus", but as you guys have indicated, that's going to pretty much require the availability of thicker stock.

Thing is, the intended target market for 15n20 didn't ever require thicker stock, and the entirety of the custom knife market, is a drop in the bucket comparatively.Also unfortunately, the sole provider of this material, is a somewhat gentrified, and seemingly traditional international corporation that is much more interested in securing large volume individual orders, than lots of smaller orders.


Thus begs the question, does 15n20 have the "brand" potential to out-value similar options, if it became available in more configurations? It's certainly possible, and maybe that's the ultimate point of this thread?
Click to expand...


In a broad sense, 15n20 doesn't have much brand value, but at the local level, I get a lot of requests for 15n20. I get zero requests for 1095, O1, or 1084. People ask for ball bearing steel, bandsaw blade steel, or W2. Recently, I've been getting more requests for "that z steel." I guess that's what I've become known for.
 
Josh Rider said:
Aldo has 1084 .125 in stock.
Alpha knife supply also has 1084 now.
You'll save some on shipping with AKS.
Click to expand...
Very weird! When I go to NJSB and click the 1084, the dropdown menu only shows it in thicknesses down to .156... how do you select .125? I will look at AKS now... i might try a few different steels and also need some micarta and pins. I don't see any of that other stuff on Aldo's site.
 
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