13C26 Razor Blade Steel -- a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II Review

Cliff Stamp said:
I have published papers in and where I have been numerously held to rigerous and indepent verification. How do you take any of that nonsense seriously.
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Too bad that your sentence structure, spelling and punctuation were never subject to the same level of "rigerous" scrutiny.

Cliff Stamp said:
My statements, unlike the numerous others in this thread are founded on FACTS. Thomas lied numerous times in the above which I pointed out. Here is a suggestion, don't lie and then you won't have to deal with being called a lier. DOn't spread misinformation and I won't call you on it. Note who cites published references and who does not. I am not the one engaging in ad hominem arguements.
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Some of what you have written in this thread is opinion, I have pointed it out for you previously. I have a question for you, Cliff. Does Spyderco supply you with product, free of charge? Are there any restrictions on what you can do with the product? Does Busse suppy you with knives at no cost? If the answer to either of those questions is yes, than how can speak poorly about the results that Thom Brogan or STR come up with, while assuming a position of higher moral ground? How do we know that you are not bought and paid for? We don't.

Cliff Stamp said:
How come there is no such nonsense on Swordforums which is filled with high level and very experienced individuals and I was specifically INVITED there and engage people on a regular basis? Now I am the same person everywhere so what is different? I'll give you a hint - it isn't me.
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What "filled with high level and very experienced individuals" at SwordForums, Cliff? Many that WERE once active left because the level of participation has been driven down seriously over the years. Christopher Lau, Ted Tenold, Big Tony....all stopped participating, because the place was being over run with wannabes and D&D misfits. What "high level and very experienced individuals"?

Cliff Stamp said:
Again, P.T. Barnum would be proud. Yes STR, in case you didn't see me say it before - NO SALESMEN IS AN UNBIASED SOURCE OF INFORMATION, this is common sense.

You realize how many tests are done on knives where the results are never aired because the knives didn't perform the way the makers thought. Another knife did better, or the performance advantage wasn't as great, or the performance similar wasn't that awesome given the price.
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A salesman may not be an UNBIASED source of information, but they ARE a source of information, maybe not to be discounted so readily. As has been said before, you know science, but you don't know jack shit about business.

Cliff Stamp said:
Of course all promotional material from any maker is suspect. But Busse and Glesser are worlds apart from Thomas, both of those people really understand steel and geometry and both of them ask for information all the time where Thomas propogates the Kershaw line with no actual factual support and ignores facts when presented to him.
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Busse and Glesser OWN the damn companies, you dense bastard!:D Thomas works there, and is trying to bring a presence to BladeForums, and you seem intent on running him off. You may be successful, I may even decide to fuck with you so relentlessly that I get banned. I'm sure that would ruin your day, but I am pretty steamed at your attacks on my good friend, who just wanted to be part of this community, accepted and respected.

You really are something, Cliff, I'm pretty sure that it is not good, either.
 
Give what I said any definition you want but if a doctor talked to patients the way you talk to people here with blatant disrespect coming across vs detailed statements based on facts as you call them they would not have a practice. The only doctors and dentists I ever knew that behaved that way had to join the service to get patients. They too never understood why they could never have a private practice successfully or keep employees either. These were the same assholes that would set up an appointment with a professional consultant, yes a salesman, that many times was also a dentist selling very expensive high tech equipment the doctor or dentist himself asked to see in his office. The doctor and salesman shake hands, the doctor takes reciept of the man's business card and tears it up or throws it away or both right in front of him and then wonders what was going on when the consultant turned and walked out the door saying nothing else. Now you probably don't see a problem here. To you its probably well, he doesn't keep business cards and the guy that has the problem is the one that turned and left. I have not found that to be true with 90% of the population. Most are offended by such an action. Its a body lanquage going along the same lines as a picture being worth a 1000 words.

Sometimes for someone so smart these guys are sure pretty dense, but ironically in fact many of them were genius IQs and incredibly skilled but no one wanted to even be in the same room with them let alone let them touch them. When people post such things as have been said here in response to the way you come across to them in your posts it should be a wake up call if nothing else because it most certainly is you Cliff they are referring to. Personally Cliff is it so much to ask of you to simply tone it down a bit and try to get along better with people by not being such a harsh bastard all the time?

Many come here to gain insight and appreciate what you know. I don't think its very good of you to demean them, and talk down to them. I don't think it shows any respect to people like Bob Dozier who is well respected and well liked in the industry for someone to say in response to something he said that its nonsense whether they think that or not. To me this is the stuff that starts the thread off from a very good discussion that was not even luke warm to a heated argument.

What was it you told me? Something like that people that feel that bad or are that sensitive should probably not ask you? Well, consider this. No one asked you here. Its a public forum. If you want to speak to people that way in private have at it. If they contact you they then need to deal with it and in fact asked for it. When a thread starts here and you comment about a post someone else made and then get insulting its going one way after that. I don't think you are unaware of this at all. In fact I think you do it on purpose and know full well what you are doing. No one asked you for that attatck and display here. You volunteer it. Its not nice. Its not worthy of high praise regardless of the content of the information and most importantly its not necessary or wanted by the majority of the people using these forums.

STR
 
Cliff Stamp said:
This 60 HRC arguement is one of the biggest myths in the industry where people claim that 60 HRC is "good enough" or whatever and that the difference between 60 HRC and 65 is insignificant but the difference between 60 and 55 is tremendous. These statements are in DIRECT OPPOSITION.
-Cliff
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If a steels characteristics* were precisely quantified, through a range of HRC points, would/should the characteristics vary linearly? Or are there points on the HRC scale that don't make as much of a difference to how a steel performs as others do?


*By characteristics I mean things like toughness, wear resistance, and edge stability (at a given geometry).
 
Cliff lives off of the replies he gets to his posts. The majority of his posts are usually lengthy with quotation references included in most, he has been here nine years and avereaged 5.3 posts per day, this is his life.
 
Larrin said:
I like knives.
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Me, too! That's so weird! Do you like Japanese-style chef knives? The ones which are basically French-pattern chef knives with slightly less belly and thinner, hard steel? I know a guy who make a really cool santoku in AEB-L and hardened it RC 63. If we can convince him to make some gyuto with the same steel and edges no thicker than 0.008", that is going to kick major aardvark!
 
we must stop aardvark on aardvark violence if we are ever to see true progress in our time

I gots my JYD today and nastardized it (pics in the 'shed) will do the cardboard tango later.
 
Larrin said:
I like knives.
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Now, there's an opinion I don't think anyone here is going to argue with! :)

More and more my focus seems to be becoming empirical, like the test I posted here. When all is said and done, what matters most is the performance we get from a blade in actual use.

I wish more people, and of course manufacturers, would start running straight-forward, quantified tests of edge retention and other aspects of cutting performance and providing us with the results. Since most anybody can reproduce the work when the test piece is a readily-available production knife, the accuracy of what's reported and claimed can be easily tested.

To answer Steve's question, I suppose it's the only way we know that anyone isn't bought and paid for, or otherwise has some agenda or bias that colors their opinion.
 
I like knives is as good a response as any I guess.

My point is that the same information can be conveyed in a much more productive way to get along with people and teach vs cause controversy and arguement. My high school teacher for history used to call it the teaching gentle approach. I'm not trying to go that extreme. Its just my opinion but my most impressive teachers, or what I'd call the best teachers convey without being insulting, demeonstrate without coming across as a know it all ass and care about the feelings and emotions of those around them that they are instructing both subordinate and peer. Bad ones put themselves on top of everyone around them, by reminding them constantly of their knowing more and looking down on those under them never letting them forget how many papers they have done, how long they have been the one and the only and constantly telling everyone why they are the experts in a never ending story. You learn from both types no doubt but the difference is in how little you respect or care for the latter character type.

STR
 
Please don't derail the question to Cliff.

Does he get knives for free from Spyderco and Busse? Don't use semantics to try and cloud the issue either, you understand what the question means. If you have to pay for shipping or some other such, it is still a pretty good deal, and qualifies for "free".

After all the crap hurled Thomas W's way, it is only fair that the damned question be answered honestly.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Does he get knives for free from Spyderco and Busse?
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I am sure he will say that he gets the knives for free in return for "consulting", not to be confused with "insulting".

There is no doubt that Cliff is an expert on cutlery steel and its characteristics. However, he knows very little about the cutlery business and even less about dealing with people.

I would also suggest that if Cliff is a "consultant" to the industry, he makes his clients look bad in these types of threads.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Actually I don't mind that, I just think it is amusing, most of the attacks are so absurd you can't get upset. People with no experience and background heavily critize me on topics I have published papers in and where I have been numerously held to rigerous and indepent verification. How do you take any of that nonsense seriously.
-Cliff
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Hey Cliff, I am having trouble finding all of your publications. I don't why it is so hard finding all of them considering your god-like stature in physics :jerkit:
Can you post your CV? Exactly which journals have you published in?
 
I like knives.

I would love free knives.

aardvark8tv.jpg
 
thombrogan said:
Me, too! That's so weird! Do you like Japanese-style chef knives? The ones which are basically French-pattern chef knives with slightly less belly and thinner, hard steel? I know a guy who make a really cool santoku in AEB-L and hardened it RC 63. If we can convince him to make some gyuto with the same steel and edges no thicker than 0.008", that is going to kick major aardvark!
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I'll see what I can do. After you see the price you might not be as excited though. Those custom knives don't come cheap. :) I think I'm going to make a few santoku's first and then move to bigger stuff, though I don't know, a lot of guys like the longer blades.
 
Kohai999 said:
Some of what you have written in this thread is opinion, I have pointed it out for you previously. I have a question for you, Cliff. Does Spyderco supply
you with product, free of charge? Are there any restrictions on what you can do with the product? Does Busse suppy you with knives at no cost? If
the answer to either of those questions is yes, than how can speak poorly about the results that Thom Brogan or STR come up with, while assuming a position
of higher moral ground? How do we know that you are not bought and paid for?
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I’m guessing Cliff will not answer any of these questions. You should also ask him what other makers have given him free knives to review that he has positive comments about. I’m on his ignore list so can’t ask him my self, but I do suspect I know of a few that have.
Are we past the JYD review part of this thread now? :)
I like knives too.
 
Kohai999 said:
Do you give knives to Cliff for free, Sal? FWIW, I LOVE knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Hi STeve,

I've sent him a few over the years, but he's commented on (and destroyed) far more of our knives than he's gotten from me, so he must be getting them somewhere else. My guess is, he's buying them.

He tends to be hard on them, destructive testing and all, but I believe he's honest in his opinions.

I'll take opinions from anyone, although I will say that "expert" opinions from those that have not used or even held a model have questionable value to me.

Hey DOW,

"I wish more people, and of course manufacturers, would start running straight-forward, quantified tests of edge retention and other aspects of cutting performance and providing us with the results. Since most anybody can reproduce the work when the test piece is a readily-available production knife, the accuracy of what's reported and claimed can be easily tested".

I believe that we, as a manufacturer, have been quite honest and forthright in providing information on our tests. Both strength and edge retention. However, "most anybody" would have a difficult time verifying accuracy without the testing equipment.

sal
 
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