13C26 Razor Blade Steel -- a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II Review

[thombrogan]

he was not all that impressed so much with the 64.5Rc blade but really preferred the softer one which was around 58Rc.
STR

He noted this on the forums?

Of course I did. Right here in a Groove review. All set up so that my statements may be publicly scrutinized and ridiculed versus in my normal cloak-and-dagger manner.

I must be, nobody at Omega wants to talk to me. I should be able to get thermocouples from Nanmac or Watlow pretty easily though, just waiting on quotes.

Sorry Omega doesn't want your money. Best of luck with the others. I'm assuming you've bugged Tim Z and Kevin C.

 

[STR]

Again. I think its good that Kershaw has at least shown some interest in listening to the public. They may not have swallowed everything that was suggested by either myself or Cliff or Thom or any of the other field testers.

Some of the test results for prototypes need to be kept privately and not everyone understands that. I ask you though. Why should prototype steels that the company in question, heck it could be anyone, it could be Spyderco, it could be Buck it could be Chris Reeves, but why should any steel they are experimenting with in private with some priavate testers be made public? You know as well as I do that what would happen is not good. Yeah it hurts sometimes to have to keep something to yourself. Believe me I know. Its tough. Some news is good and you just want to share it. Other stuff you are glad it wasn't let out on. If CATRA or any other testing or even a review on Cliff's web site showing negatives or even more postitive results than was ever expected were made public about a prototype steel that a company isn't even sure it may use it makes sense that several factors could still play into whether the company uses that steel or not.

Lets suppose that the 64.5Rc knife cut like a demon and outperformed even Cliff's expectations but it rusted so bad it may as well be carbon steel. Now suppose that everyone got excited about this new cutting demon steel but then the company decided not to use it for the other reason. Do you see the problem?

Its perfectly fine to allow different opinions. That is one of the things I think we all love about the blade forums isn't it? Whats not fun is trying to walk a fine line between letting a steel out there before you know enough about it and do some field work first. It gets touchy, people get plans, have to cancel plans, stuff gets lost in the mail, broken at one testers house before another sees it and so on.

It may even be true that a lot of critic at times is a hard if not bitter pill to swallow for these companies and anyone involved but in the end Kershaw still came through with some testing and some knives to look at and 16 new models for end line users all in one year in large part thanks to some anonymous field testers and others within the company in R&D that do a wonderful job for Kai/Kershaw.

This is a really good thing for the public. I think so anyway.

I also think we are getting a bit too critical about some $30 and $60 knives for the general public. These are not Sebenza price point knives and yet this discussion takes off as if its a Sebenza high profile one sometimes. Let try to keep it in perspective at least. And I really don't like the "borderline" references and slight leanings towards distrust of those behind the production of these fine knives. I don't think that is needed or really even very nice personally.

STR

 

[thombrogan]

I'd take a Kershaw JYD II over a Sebenza; even a lefty Sebenza; every day of the week. Steel liners over a titanium frame and 13C26 at RC59-61 over S30V at ??? - no problemo!

If that Galyean guy would design a lockback version and add a wire clip, I'd even invent new days of the week. If Kershaw used the same edge thickness seen on their Shun line and employed the wildly impractical for large shop heat-treatments, I'd stuff extra hours into those new days, too. Would gladly pay twice the street price for a lockback JYD II (all else the same) over a linerlocked version with the current heat-treat.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Some of the test results for prototypes need to be kept privately and not everyone understands that.

Considering that I have done that professionally I understand it quite well. The problem is SELECTIVE publication.

Lets suppose that the 64.5Rc knife cut like a demon and outperformed even Cliff's expectations but it rusted so bad it may as well be carbon steel.

The hardness would not influence the cutting ability, and the corrosion resistance would INCREASE with the higher hardness. But yes sometimes prototypes go wrong, if they didn't they would not be called prototypes. In those cases, it is very important to have unbiased information, only takes a few simple steps, none of which they did.

Of course I did.

Yeah, inferior geometry + optimal steel = inferior knife. As Alvin would say, sometimes 1+2 = 1.

-Cliff

 

[fishtale]

Just went an got my little Chive a big brother! Picked up a Leek...mfg date 1/07. I wanted to make sure I had one in the original 440A steel before the changeover to 13C26. These are just great knives! Innovative designs, good price and made in USA...how can you go wrong.

 

[STR]

What Bob Dozier does with D2 goes against the grain of the ASTM's recommendations. They say cryo is a very good thing for that steel and Bob says it's a work-around for a poor heat-treatment so far as blades are concerned. Bob's actions place him contrary to panels of published experts, but you know what? He's just as right for his choices as they are for theirs.

He said a lot more on it in an old thread on his own forum about the experts that do the writing. Its a very good read for anyone wanting to go off to the forum link below and read it. I really think he has very good points with it. I sent my own personal blades I made of D2 to Bob to heat treat because I believe his heat treatment provides all it will ever need. I don't think there is a better expert than Bob with D2 personally.


One of his memorable statements I kept. I venture to say this could start a war here among some so I want to caution everyone about taking off and making this the subject now and derailing this thread but it was brought up and is worth mentioning in passing I think. This would be an interesting and informative new thread though.

Quote from Bob about D2 and Cryo: This may apply to a lot of knife blades actually but that again is another subject.

"Rember that we are talking about very thin knife blades and not huge and very thick dies, that need the special treatments that everyone is talking.

Things happen quicker and easier with these small parts. Most of what is wrote in the metallurgy books is not for these thin knife blades that rarely see the repetitious shock that large dies get. And thin blades respond to heat treatment much better.

As put by Ed Severson " Usually the gain is so subtle that you do not notice it.

Bob D."

Here is the link to the whole thread. Its a good one. FYI.

http://dozierknives.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140&highlight=cryo

STR

 

[thombrogan]

I think your explanation fleshed out mine, STR. But enough about D2...

 

[STR]

Not sure what that means my friend. Hope its not negative though.

I wanted to bring the JYDII thread back to the top and that seemed like a good thread for some interesting reading. But in an effort to keep this on track I'll add this.

I've been using my JYDII again today and just love how this thing fits my hand. Its a very comfortable knife in even hard cuts others are difficult to endure barehanded.

At first I liked the color of the G10 but then thought I would change the scales to something in a different color when I got to know this one but the more I carried it and got to use it the more I liked it the way it is. Its really kind of a neutral color that doesn't stand out in public that bad which is quite nice when you are carrying a bigger folder.

STR

 

[db]

What??? Come on STR that knife is begging for some blaze orange G10.

 

[STR]

I thought seriously it would have teal or some other colored G10 or Micarta there for a while but then I got a bunch of stuff in from members to do to their knives so it put anything I wanted to do for myself on hold. By the time I had some space to fit a project of my own in I changed my mind.

Regardless of any selling I can be accused of this knife speaks for itself really. Anyone that sees one will know what I mean, especially after they cut with it because it performs well in my opinion.

STR

 

[thombrogan]

Not negative in the least, STR.

I also like your point about the G10 scales. The gray isn't a distraction, but it lets the user appreciate the neat homage to riveted steel between uses.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

.... [Dozier quote]Rember that we are talking about very thin knife blades and not huge and very thick dies, that need the special treatments that everyone is talking.

This is nonsense, ask for the metallurgical data to back that up, you won't find it. Now ask the actual experts, not those that are selling/shilling for a company and look at the data they provide. Yes, this has been studied in detail for very thin sections like knife blades and yes cryo/cold is very significant, especially for steels as complicated as D2. If you want to look at a specific example, compare a Dozier in D2 vs a Swamp Rat in D2. Look at the testing that Busse Combat did and then do that with a Dozier and see if the difference is "subtle". Experts are not people who soapbox, those are salesmen. Experts want their opinion to be challenge, they seek it, they encourage it and they NEVER oppose it.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

"This is nonsense, ask for the metallurgical data to back that up, you won't find it. Now ask the actual experts, not those that are selling/shilling for a company and look at the data they provide. Yes, this has been studied in detail for very thin sections like knife blades and yes cryo/cold is very significant, especially for steels as complicated as D2. If you want to look at a specific example, compare a Dozier in D2 vs a Swamp Rat in D2. Look at the testing that Busse Combat did and then do that with a Dozier and see if the difference is "subtle". Experts are not people who soapbox, those are salesmen. Experts want their opinion to be challenge, they seek it, they encourage it and they NEVER oppose it."

Adversarial, attacking by tone. Argumentative. Even anger can be read into your comment. Once again its not what you say but how you say it. Yes you have such a charming personality no wonder everyone loves you so much. And you wonder why you get the response you do when you do what you call a challenge. Unbelievable.

Isn't this much different but says the same thing?

The above statement is debateable. I'd like to see the metalurrgical data to back that up. I do know cryo has been studied for very thin sections like knife blades and cryo has shown to be significant according to the data I have seen, and so on skipping the little personal slights would be even nicer IMO

Just a thought. Not that it will ever get anywhere. Of course you have to actually care about relationships enough to want to build any and you can do that without being a salesman but whatever Cliff. You make sense but the argumentative tone is never going to do much but cause people to snap back at you rather than see what you are saying. You can still make a point without all the anger coming across. Not that I am not guilty of it at times but mostly everyones main issuse with you is the same across the board. You can't, won't have no desire to even try to get along with others. You just argue. And if you want to even try to single me out go right ahead because I know I'm not the only one. Respond if you want but I'm not here after this. Its coming up on midnight here and I'm going to bed.

I may read it in the morning but with the holiday it might not happen.

Have a happy Easter everyone.



STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...you wonder why you get the response you do when you do

No, I understand it perfectly, it is all based on fear.

The above statement is debateable.

Not if your debate is one of logic and facts. Ad Hominen statements are not a debate.

I'd like to see the metalurrgical data to back that up.

Read a book, I would recommend Krauss, or look at the specific references I have provided numerous times. Allan is a decent primer on steels. Specifically I would recommend that you first research the Mf point for steels based on alloy content.

On my website I have listed DATA that for even simpler steels like A2 then cold/cryo makes a massive difference both in indirect increased hardness and toughness due to reduction in retained austenite. The latter was discussed in detail on sword forums where the FACTS about retained austenite being a drawback for toughness in knives was clearly explained.

Or as I said, take the work that was done on the Swamp D2 blade and try it with a Dozier D2 and see if the difference is subtle. Just even ask Dozier if that would be advised, he will tell you directly it is not.

You keep saying Dozier is THE expert. Who are you comparing him to? Who are you saying is INFERIOR? Which other custom and production blades in D2 have you used, which other people have you discussed D2's performance with?

Do you honestly think that Phil Wilson could not heat treat D2 as well as Dozier? Do you think that Busse doesn't have the facilities or the experience either?

...the argumentative tone is never going to do much but cause people to snap back at you

Hardly, not everyone has that viewpoint. Yes there are always those like Thomas who respond with personal rants when presented with opposing facts, that isn't just Bladeforums, that is life in general.

No I don't care about building relationships with people who will resort to lies, gang mentality and ad hominem rants. Maybe that is how you look to build your circle of friends but I want none of that in mine.

I get more corrospondence about knives than I can handle. There is a reason my email often gets backed up for weeks. Lots of people are interested in actual facts and data, no a lot of them don't tend to participate on Bladeforums.

-Cliff

 

[HoB]

I have long debated whether I really want to be part of this thread that has long gone beyond rediculus, but found I couldn't resist.

I read the Dozier thread that STR posted and later did a literature search for "retained austenite" (which goes against my personal principle of mixing work life and private life) and found PLENTY of scientific papers that directly support what Dozier says in his thread, which is in a nutshell, that non-stabilized austinite that converts over time leads to embrittlement due to a particular conversion austinite undergoes (interlaths of cemenite in particular), and I will spare you the details. While STABILIZIED retained austenite INCREASES toughness, and there are certain heat treating protocols that are apparently able to stabilize the retained austenite (not to mention compositional changes, in particular Mn and Si seem to have beneficial effects on the stabilization of retained austenite). A quote from one of the abstracts:"The thin films of retained austenite are thermally and mechanically stable and act to reduce the effective fracture grain size and also possibly help to blunt propagating microcracks". The quote in particular refers to a special case of bainited steel though, but the general argument can be found for other types of steels. Good thing that there are literature sources out there other than books....

And this is as far as I am willing to go with this. I am neither going to get into an argument nor a discussion over this. I am not an expert on this, nor am I willing to become one, so in any discussion I would be quickly out of my depth, but thankfully, I am still able to read.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

While STABILIZIED retained austenite INCREASES toughness...

The ironic thing about this is that it holds for large cracks, on non-knife like objects, which is the exact opposite pool that was origionally critized in the above. I posted a paper on this very issue on Swordforums many months ago. However for very thin edges, such as on knives, retained austenite is a very bad thing and will lead to very low edge stability, so if you make you knives as cutting tools then this is obviously problematic. Now what is Dozier's primary functional goal? Now look beyond theory and direct application to knives (shocking idea I know, actually demand some test data). Now compare Dozier vs the Safari Skinner, it is more than absurd to argue toughness for Dozier's heat treatment, especially considering his stance on the issue and the testing done on the Safari Skinner. But again, this would be a logical and fact based arguement. So again I would ask the obvious, who are the INFERIOR D2 makers? Where is the data to support they are inferior?

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

I've been using my JYDII again today and just love how this thing fits my hand. Its a very comfortable knife in even hard cuts others are difficult to endure barehanded.

I agree ... the edge retention work like I do can be a pretty fair comparison of ergonomics as well, and the JYD2 is a pleasure to use.

During a good part of the winter I carried a Byrd G-10 Cara Cara, which IMO is a great knife if you're wearing gloves. On the rope cutting, however, that jimping proves to be pretty severe of bare skin (I know I didn't mention edge retention results from this knife, and others, but a number of knives and steels got tested.) The JYD2 by comparison showed no tendency to abrade or produce hot spots, and in fact is designed such that a much less "muscular" grip is needed for similar work.

I remarked in another thread that the JYD2 is one of the best integrated designs I've used in a folder. Credit to Tim Galyean, I'll take good design in gray G-10 any day.

BTW, STR, I've been wanting to ask you about the ergonomics of the smaller, all-metal JYD. How does it compare in your opinion?

 

[STR]

The smaller JYD is a well built smaller frame lock. I put the Vassilli choil on mine, converted it to tip up carry with a new custom clip, took off the horns and carried it for a while. Then I loaned it to my computer guy during my hard drive crash. He liked it so much I gave it to him. I still have one that I had Tim Galyean sign for me that I'll keep in mint condition but not use.

As the JYD comes from the factory I don't care for it really. Its a fine knife don't get me wrong. I just find the little 'horns' on the top of the folder body where I want to place my thumb during use to be cause for alarm during some cuts if you try to put your thumb there and overall the knife is a bit small for me. When you consciously move your thumb back its fine for most cuts but as you said and I have also found to be true with thinner all metal knives it can be uncomfortable if you really lean into it to make heavy force cuts. Ironically I note that the JYDII has the same horns but for some reason, which is more than likely the ample handle they are not in the way or noticed by my hand like they are on the smaller knife.

The Byrd all stainless, the Storm the JYD and the Groove are all knives that in my opinion require gloves for heavy duty cutting if it is more than just a few quick cuts. During the hemp cutting and whittling the Groove flipper wore a small blister mark that was forming at my index between the thumb and index on the side of my finger. If I'd have continued it would have become raw and painful and my hands are pretty callused up because I rarely wear gloves.

The JYD knife cut the hemp rope easier than I expected it to. It seemed to do it with less effort to me than either the Storms (both models) or the Grooves which surprised me for its size. Must be the blade shape is all I can figure.

STR

 

[Dog of War]

Thanks, STR. Got some knife gift-buying to do pretty soon, and am considering picking up a smaller JYD for myself; 3" blade addresses legal issues the larger JYD2 will have in certain jurisdictions. So there's a place in my rotation for a smaller frame lock, and I'm thinking the clip will keep fingers from resting on the lock bar and interfering with opening, a problem I often have with frame locks.

The JYD knife cut the hemp rope easier than I expected it to. It seemed to do it with less effort to me than either the Storms (both models) or the Grooves which surprised me for its size. Must be the blade shape is all I can figure.

I posted my thoughts on a thread Vassili started related to this ... I think it's a combination of the good belly on the blade and the handle design. When cutting with the handle elevated is when you really see the ergonomic advantage of Galyean's design. Part of the that "integrated" design I mentioned.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Many knives are uncomfortable in heavy cutting, for various reasons. Boye was always very good for that, his knives are exceptionally comfortable both due to the handle and very rounded spine. Wilson is good for that as well. So are most of the ABS guys. A lot of the folders however don't tend to work well if you do heavy whittling or dozens of think hemp cuts. Of course not a lot of people really need to make 50 hemp cuts and security is usually argued to be more important. Though I don't think those two have to oppose each other. Does Kershaw have a 13C26 in a non-tactical?

-Cliff