20 gauge shotgun with pistol grip.

is it a 12 or 20?

imho the best in a 12 is the federal tactical 00 buck,

FWIW, my wifes favorite riot gun is a ithaca 20 w/a 18.5" bbl and what i think is a "youth" buttstock, or perhaps someone just cut the std one down some, i got it for her because she was small (5'2 110) but after buying it i found it had a lotta the pluses of a folder or PG (ie short OAL) but ya can also shoulder it, a cool little shotgun imho.
 
I am going to repeat, for most home invasion situations where the distance will not exceed 25 feet, ( stop and measure the distance within your house or apartment, seldom will it exceed 25 feet), anything larger than a # 5 bird shot is totally unneeded. 00 or 000 Buck shot is great, if you are outside with greater distances, with no fears of overpenetration, but inside the normal residence, is overkill. Rather than listen to some one who is repeating what they have been told, check it out for yourself, a good load of 1 1/4 ounce of # 5 bird shot is very destructive at 25 feet, but will not be likely to kill or injure folks beyond your walls. I have personally seen the results of such a load on a human being, and it was as terminal as you could wish for, and without the probability of being accused of an "excessive force" charge or accusiation in a court of law. 00 Buckshot is very close to size and weight to a .32 caliber bullet, but with up to a 50% higher velocity than from most pochet able pistols. Do you want 9 or up to 12 of those tearing through a wall with your children or possibly a neighbor on the other side? Plus, I assure you seldom will such a load stop an attack any faster than a load of smaller shot.
 
A lot of birdshot will go through walls, especially in apartment buildings and other low grade constructions.
 
I use #4 at home. When I was on Embassy Duty that was what we carried in our 870s for precisely the reason you stated....less chance of over-penetration.
 
I am going to repeat, for most home invasion situations where the distance will not exceed 25 feet, ( stop and measure the distance within your house or apartment, seldom will it exceed 25 feet), anything larger than a # 5 bird shot is totally unneeded. 00 or 000 Buck shot is great, if you are outside with greater distances, with no fears of overpenetration, but inside the normal residence, is overkill. Rather than listen to some one who is repeating what they have been told, check it out for yourself, a good load of 1 1/4 ounce of # 5 bird shot is very destructive at 25 feet, but will not be likely to kill or injure folks beyond your walls. I have personally seen the results of such a load on a human being, and it was as terminal as you could wish for, and without the probability of being accused of an "excessive force" charge or accusiation in a court of law. 00 Buckshot is very close to size and weight to a .32 caliber bullet, but with up to a 50% higher velocity than from most pochet able pistols. Do you want 9 or up to 12 of those tearing through a wall with your children or possibly a neighbor on the other side? Plus, I assure you seldom will such a load stop an attack any faster than a load of smaller shot.

This is what I was looking for, thanks. The 870 Police Magnum I grabbed is 12 gauge and #4 or #5 sounds good. I am very concerned with penetration through sheetrock and such, which is why my .38 is loaded with Glaser slugs. I may have missed your previous posts, sorry. Thanks again.
 
I use #4 at home. When I was on Embassy Duty that was what we carried in our 870s for precisely the reason you stated....less chance of over-penetration.

Brand? Does it go by any specific name, like turkey shot or waterfowl shot? Trying to find it when I go to the store. Thanks.
 
Brand? Does it go by any specific name, like turkey shot or waterfowl shot? Trying to find it when I go to the store. Thanks.

I use Federal but any brand name should be fine. Just look for #4 shot (or #5 would work too). Since you likely have the option of 3" or 2 3/4" inch you might stick with the 2 3/4" simply because they'll have a little less power.
 
...as terminal as you could wish for, and without the probability of being accused of an "excessive force" charge or accusiation in a court of law...
Wow. Your post is so full of ridiculous advice, but anyone on the fence should just consider this sentence for a second.

Excessive force? For choosing Buck over Bird? What country do you live in? Here in the USA, a firearm with traditional ammunition is a weapon which will be considered lethal force under the law. It doesn't matter whether you shoot someone with birdshot, buckshot, in the leg, in the arm, in the torso, or in the head. If you pull the trigger it better be a justifiable use of lethal force.

You (incorrectly) assure us that birdshot is already reliably "terminal" indoors. Well if you are correct, what could be a more excessive level of force than that? Are you afraid you will face the "accusiation" [sic] that you killed someone super-duper-extra-dead as opposed to just regular dead?

Plus, I assure you seldom will such a load stop an attack any faster than a load of smaller shot.
Thank you for your assurance. All the decades of testing by law enforcement agencies and laboratories using calibrated gelatin and other means must be wrong in their recommendations about penetration in a human for reliable terminal performance.

It's not like the FBI has been in any hairy gunfights or anything. They define minimum acceptable penetration as 12" with 18" preferred. Birdshot, on the other hand, will penetrate about 5"-7" into someone (depending on size).

Sure, you might retort that 5"-7" will still ruin someone's day. MAYBE: if you get a dead-on shot, with them facing straight at you, and they are only wearing a light t-shirt. What if they are wearing leather, denim, or even a winter coat? That penetration will drop dramatically. Now what if they are at even the slightest angle to you? Your birdshot might still tear out a chunk of flesh, sure, but that's it. No vital organs = no reliable stoppage.

Just a few sources which are easily found via Google:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/cho...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

But hey, if you want to toss out all that scientific data and rely on simple anecdotes, here's one we can compare and contrast to your advice:

I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.

Anecdote source: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Pardon the abrasiveness of my post, but it bothers me to see such blatantly incorrect information being handed out to as gospel. When you spread this kind of disinformation (apparently based on seeing one dead guy), you should consider that someone even less knowledgeable than yourself may mistakenly rely on it to dangerous consequence.
 
for a SD shotgun i would stick with buckshot or slugs myself unless i was REALLY concerned with overpenetration and if i was that concerned about it i would question whether a shotgun was really what i needed and look at a pistol calibre carbine or a .45ACP pistol.

though birdshot will kill (i have killed a buck with #4 shot myself) its not a good choice imho and many others opinions it doesnt offer enough penetration,

if ya have to shoot someone and ya use a shotgun buckshot or birdshot is gonna have little or no influence on how a prosecuter is gonna deal with ya, the thing he is gonna look at is if ya were justified in using deadly force not if ya used birdshot lol, come on that doesnt even make sense to me.
 
I hardly know where to start in defending my previous post. However, while I agree with some of what you said, let me explain. If the OP is like we have to assume, a regular law abiding homeowner, or dweller with a family, I don't think he is in too much danger from the organized military might of a well trained and armed group.
The most likely perps to make a home invasion is one to three looking for a few portable items to sell as soon as possible. The only thing these guys hate worse than working to get funds for their desires is to be seriously hurt. You shoot one of them, and more than likely the rest will beat feet to escape, leaving the one behind. If they are armed, it usually is with something they have picked up, and more than likely do not know if it will fire or not. I several years ago acquired a collectable .32 auto for less than a song, it would not fire for him because the perp had loaded it with .32 rimmed revolver rounds rather than the .32 ACP.
Abnormallities exist in most siturations, and I have to believe there was a reason for the mentioned man who took a shot to the chest and later walked to the ambulance. Either the shells were older than he was, or possibly fired from a very shortened barrel to not allow much velocity gain. On this same theme, I have personally seen a person shot in the head with a 160 grain .30 caliber from an M1 Garand, and he survived for well over two hours, with a hole from side to side, THROUGH the skull. After being taken off to an aid station, I have no idea if he lived or died, or any other particulars. Unusual for sure, but not enough evidence for the U. S. Military to abandon that round.
Zenhertic: You are absolutely correct, bird shot will penetrate normal sheet rock walls, but will be slowed enough to be less than fatel in most cases. If the shot is fired at a 90 degree to the wall, it has a much better chance of penetration, but will often ricochet if it impacts at more of an angle.
Now again, if I was detailed to guard a large valuable and desireable item, yes I'd have at least buckshot in my shotgun, plus mixes of slugs as well, if I could not lay my hands on something even more lethal, but not my home.
Again if there was a cache of illegal substances, maybe a point of manufacture of such, lots of cash money, then orgainized attacks might result, but so far I have not seen indications of such for home invasions.
I am 75 years old, served in Korea whle the armed conflict was taking place, and with extremely short exceptions, have carried some sort of concealed firearm every since. I have not been forced to fire a shot in anger, as usually the sight of a person capable of offering armed resistance is sufficient for the perps to leave rapidly. For many of those years, I carried a 2 shot derringer, and while I would not feel comfortable with such today, it served me well. I have to laugh at the ordinary citizens who feel they have to have two or more pistols, with reloads to go into the local store for a paper or such. I have been told by several well meaning folks that I am seriously undergunned with a five shot .44 Special revolver and one speed loader, as they feel like they need a fifteen shot capacity pistol with multiple magazines.
Now if I was over there in the Sand Box, I would be so loaded down with various firearms and ammo I would clank when I walked, or maybe worked as an armored car guard, etc. That is not yet necessary for the average citizen, as the perps are not willing to stick around once the sounds of gunfire alert others. That is another thing, has anyone suffered from the sounds of a shotgun or large caliber pistol fired in an enclosed room? Everyone, including the one doing the shooting will not soon forget that.
Today, a person using any means of protecting what he considers worth protecting has more to worry about than the Prosecuting Attorney. Usually if cleared form criminal court proceedings, some family member will bring suit against you for having killed their Son, Husband, etc. Now which would you rather have, the family's sleazy lawyer showing off a regular 870 pump gun, loaded with large bird shot, or a fancy combat modified unit, extended magazine tube, filled to the limit with 00 or 000 buck and slugs. Is it a far fetched thought to think such a "specialized" weapon, loaded with the most lethal rounds available might have impact on the 12 folks who are deciding how many hundreds of thousands of your dollars they should award the poor greiving survivor? I've seen it happen, and most of you have as well. I used to own a Scatter Gun Technology Border Patrol modified 870, and to my way of thinking, I believe it was and probably still is the finest combat shotgun available, but I got rid of it, after seeing how easy a jury was swayed by the very evident combat appearance of even less modified shotguns.
OK, I'm done posting on this subject, and as previous stated "YMMV.
 
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first how did someone get .32 rimmed rounds to go into the magazine then go into the bbl of a .32 auto, i dont think thats possible? magazine?? maybe. bbl? i dont
know lol.

ya have to presume a lotta things to agree w/ya, ya have to assume the range is short(it isnt always), ya have to assume the birdshot will work (ya dont with buckshot), and ya have to assume both previous assumptions are correct to assume ya will survive the incident and in fact be sued, and sure nothing is 100% effective up to and including a .50BMG, but for me especially in my home i would rather deal with what i know will work vs what i hope will work if the ranges are short/etc, i am pretty laid back and all but if someones in my home then all bets are off and i want something i know is gonna work and work well, and birdshot just doesnt fill those criteria, for me, as far as suits anyone can sue anyone else for anything, but the odds of winning a wrongfull death suit when the deceased was killed in another persons home while robbing/raping/etc couldnt be good, in fact i would say they would be downright poor, all this and they will argue that its not justified due to the ammo? i dont know.........

i suppose it could depend on the state ya live in as far as suits/prosecutions, but i am fairly sure in my state (TX) the gun doesnt matter (as long as its legal) nor does the ammo (again as long as legal, not AP or something)the question is gonna be "were ya justified in using deadly force".

now if ya are in a situation were all ya got is some birdshot, hey it beats nothing thats for sure, but to deliberately use it in a SD scenario, to buy it and load it with that in mind, i just couldnt agree with that.
 
Well, I didn't mean to jab a stick in the hornet's nest :), but maybe I can crystallize things a bit.

The 870 Police Magnum I purchased is not "tacticool" looking, no scopes or lasers, no side saddles, no straps. Just a simple Parkerized 870 with an 18.5" barrel and a synthetic stock. The Police Magnum designation is with regard to it's beefed up innards to lend ruggedness. The tube only holds 4 rounds and I have no plans to extend it because the thing is heavy enough. The stock is a SpeedFeed which holds an additional 4 rounds if I choose to use it, and I have a .38 accessible at all times if needed.

In my home, I believe as a sensible, reasonable person who is also very familiar with the law (my occupation), I am secure in knowing that the use of deadly force within the home is justified. I will not hesitate to defend the lives of my wife and 2 children should I (God forbid) be faced with an imminent threat that has invaded my home. That said, I do not believe the choice of ammo will affect my justification in using deadly force one bit. Either I am justified under the circumstances or I'm not. I feel confident that I can defend myself in the event that some sumbag's family decides to sue because I rid society of their "loved one" who invaded my home. Yes, I've seen the process, where they bring pictures of the perp in his communion suit or school picture, which is very different from the hooded sweatshirt and and overall appearance he had when he was shot while committing a crime. In the case of home defense, I'll take my chances.

My only concern regarding the choice of ammo is the issue of over-penetration, which could endanger my family members as well as my neighbors. Nothing else matters in this analysis save for the issue of effective stopping power. The balance between the 2 is the issue I raise.

So, I purchased Remington 00 buck when I bought the shotgun. I'll have that for now until I can determine if another shell is more suitable for home defense. I've read where #4 buck is a good trade-off of stopping power and lessened danger of over-penetration, and I know BlackHills has recommended this (Thank You!). Anyone else feel this is suitable? I've also read that folks will put #4 in the chamber and load 00 behind it for "insurance". Not sure about this though.

Thanks to you folks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
 
i have heard both good and bad about 4 buckshot, i dont think i would use it in 12gauge, i prefer the fed tac 00 load, i do use it in my wifes old 20gauge though.

some folks say its the bomb and others say its too small without sufficient penetration and range, go figure.

imho the 00 would be a bit better at longer ranges but thats not a shotguns strong suit anyway, really not even with slugs.

i know a few LEO's and the ones who carry shotguns (vs M4's) all carry the fed tac 00 load, and (like masad ayoob says.....) "they are happy with it" lol.
 
Congrats on the shotgun:):thumbup:

I've been thinking about replacing the trigger on my 870 synthetic express with one that has a steel guard. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me, but I just like the way steel feels.

I feel very, very secure with my 870 loaded up with 6 rounds of 00 and a sleeve of 4 00 and a slug "just in case" riding on the stock....not to mention the home made 12 round bandoleer hanging over the bed post;)

My .38 special is almost an afterthought, but something the wife can handle if I needed to leave the room with the shotgun for some reason. If I'm ever out of town, she knows that if there is ever any trouble she is to shut and lock the door, get on the other side of the bed, call 911, rack the slide and point it at the door.
 
Agree with buckshot as the best SD load. However, I prefer NR 4 buckshot! These have 27, count 'em, 27, 22 caliber pellets in one 2 3/4 shell at about 1200 fps! That's a hell of a lot of destruction at close range--like a bolt of lightning. The first person I ever had to (unfortunately) shoot was a prisoner on a work detail who tried to attack me, the guard, with a pick axe. My one blast of Nr 4 took his left leg off and permanently crippled his right leg. I still have that scenario vivid in my mind from 55 years ago. I recently ordered and received a 300 round shipment of Nr 4 from a distributor and am glad to have it.
 
What is the opinion on choke for home defense, Would full vs clyinder offer more penetration with any given load At HD ranges,say 10-15 feet?
 
the more open the choke is the faster the shot spreads but at 0-15' its not gonna spread much regardless of choke, if i was concerned with overpenetration i would want a cyl bore though, just no need for any choke at ranges like that, regardless of the load used, buck or birdshot.

my dad had a old stevens 12 gauge riot gun someone had put a poly choke on, with the choke its like a 20" bbl, kinda neat, anyway we were shooting buckshot outta it one day (IIRC 4 buck and 0 buck) comparing it to a mossy 500 w/a 18.5"cyl bore bbl and when ya tightened up the poly choke to improved cyl the stevens would shoot a pattern at 25' ya could cover with a small paper plate(in fact we were using a small paper plate as a target taped on a horse feed bag), no flyers, pretty impressive i thought, the cyl bore had quite a bit bigger pattern at that range, dont remember the exact specs but it was nite and day difference, it was the 1st time i shot buck out of a gun with any choke i always thought the choke would batter the shot load and distort the buckshot outta round and make it go everywhere lol, wasnt the case at all, not on the old stevens anyway. also with the poly choke on cyl, it patterned about like the 500 did, and if ya tightened it up past improved it did start getting flyers so i guess on the stevens "imp" was a "sweet spot" and it patterned real well with buckshot at that setting, which was good to know.

but at home defense ranges i dont think any choke is neccesary, if all ya have is a std remington 870 with mod choke that will work just fine too at HD ranges, but if i was gonna buy a shotgun for HD i would get one with a cyl bore or maybe improved at the very most.
 
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for a SD shotgun i would stick with buckshot or slugs myself unless i was REALLY concerned with overpenetration and if i was that concerned about it i would question whether a shotgun was really what i needed and look at a pistol calibre carbine or a .45ACP pistol.

though birdshot will kill (i have killed a buck with #4 shot myself) its not a good choice imho and many others opinions it doesnt offer enough penetration,

if ya have to shoot someone and ya use a shotgun buckshot or birdshot is gonna have little or no influence on how a prosecuter is gonna deal with ya, the thing he is gonna look at is if ya were justified in using deadly force not if ya used birdshot lol, come on that doesnt even make sense to me.

For home defense, #4 buckshot is the preferred load. Ask any LE department. The reason? It doesn't go through walls like 00 buck. Whoever suggested #5 birdshot is a bit mis-informed.

CW
 
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