2012 Christmas KITH - have you started yet?

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Atlas Knife Company

Atlas Knife Company

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Just wondering if anyone else has started their Christmas KITH yet? I know there hasn't been an official announcement of one this year, and last year's announcement was a month earlier.

I'm planning on damascus and antler for mine this year! I made a bar of cable damascus last month and have had an antler curing for two years now and think it would be great in the KITH.
 
Nothing started yet but I plan to try and enter something. I'm thinking Bird n Trout with horn scales maybe use stainless blade stock but who knows.
 
Just learned what th KITH is! I'm sure my knives will be no where near the level of other makers, but I would love to try. I'll start and see how it comes out. Sounds like a lot of fun! :D
 
I'll be honest. After all the folks who had a problem with the KITH last year, I didn't start one yet this year. I think Geek was just as frustrated.

Too many different ideas on how the Christmas KITH should/shouldn't be run. I have had good results with the way it was set up, but not everyone seems happy with it that way.

Running a KITH well takes a lot of work. The more it gets complicated, the more work.....and the more problems. Adding brand new makers and those with still developing skills adds several more layers of problems. When it was done among those who had enough experience to make a good knife there were few problems. When done among all comers, the finish rate was less than 50%. Several did not send their knives, or sent sub-standard knives. I understand that it isn't all about the knife quality, but there should be some standards applied.
 
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I was hoping there would be one this year but I understand Stacy's point of view completely.

randy
 
Stacy just for our information (without pointing fingers) what was wrong with these substandard knives? As a new maker I've not participated in a KITH, but I've considered it and honestly wouldn't want to cause anyone any problems in that regard. So I ask to avoid some of the pitfalls if/when I ever do participate (and for others that may have the same concerns).
 
I really don't want this to become a KITH war, but:
Some knives were made in the last day or two and looked like it.
Some knives were poorly finished or not well made.
Some knives were said to be done, then at the last moment a "problem" came up and the person withdrew, asked for an extension, or did not send the knife.

What a knife in a KITH that is open to the general knifemakers group should have/be is:
Proper fit and finish. Sanded smooth and scratch free.
Detail to attachments and fittings.
Show that an effort was made to construct the best knife the maker can.

The maker should be able to execute a knife that is sufficient to be part of the general group. That doesn't mean all should be Bruce Bump knives, but all should be of a reasonable quality range in materials and workmanship. With the experience in making knives that comes form making a dozen or more, also comes the pride and ethic of a skilled craftsman. These folks don't need to be told if a knife is up to the quality needed...they self judge pretty accurately. A brand new maker on knife two or three is rightfully proud of his knife, but less likely to be unbiased in critiquing it and his skills.

A second KITH was formed when some folks asked if they could join in, and were privately advised that they should work on their knives fr a year longer before putting them in the KITH.
I believe it had its problems, too.

There were other issues as well.
 
I think this topic is worth pursuing. I really wanted to participate this year if possible, but agree that there ought to be some standards. The trick is how to set and enforce those standards.

Here is a proposal for discussion:

Create 3 KITH tiers, all with the same rules, each with an assigned wrangler.
The top tier is establish high-end makers - to populate it, the three wranglers select several initial participants. These participants then vote in other tier-1 KITHers.
The middle tier is for people who make knives regularly, perhaps have some sales if they do that sort of thing, but aren't operating at the level of tier 1. The same set practice could be used to populate this tier.
The entry-level tier would be for hobbiests who really want to join, but haven't established themselves. It would be more open. How to populate this one? Not sure, but it would encourage participation by brand new makers. After a KITH or two, or an established line of work, the operators of the middle (or top - everyone progresses at different rates!) could be invited to participate in another tier.

The idea here is to have the populations select their participants in a semi-private ballot way. Deliberation is non-public, and the wranglers are tasked with ensuring elitism is kept under control at each level.

It would be more work than a single KITH, but there would be structure and the boundaries would be reasonably well defined.

-Daizee
 
Knife Dogs forum usually has a Christmas and a July 4th KITH for those who want to enter a knife.
 
daizee,
I understand your reasoning, but the more complex the organization of anything, be it a tool or a KITH, the more things that can and will go wrong. When things are simple, they run simple.

Right off the bat I can see people not selected for the group they wanted to be in saying, "Why did you say my knife is bad".

The whole point of the KITH is not for it to be a contest. That does not say there should not be standards.
 
Not meaning to rain on the parade, but I had already made the decision not to participate in the KITH this year, so I'm not disappointed to learn it isn't being actively pursued.

I wouldn't say my disinterest has anything to do with the issues so often discussed about last year's KITH. It's really more about my not seeing a clear path to having the time to make a good knife. My life has become very hectic of late.

- Greg
 
bladsmth said:
When things are simple, they run simple.
Click to expand...

Agreed. That's why boundaries and rules would have to be simple and clear. Otherwise the software will crash.

Right off the bat I can see people not selected for the group they wanted to be in saying, "Why did you say my knife is bad".
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right.
In the above model the selection process would happen at 'I'm in' time, not after the knife is made.

Another thought: a maker could participate in any tier up to and including the highest one for which they are selected. That way Mr. Fancy Bowie Maker could throw something into tier 2 or 1 as an exciting incentive to makers in that group. I'm not sure if that would actually happen, but I like the thought.
 
A KITH can be run by anyone who wants to do it. I will be glad to offer advice and info (by email) to anyone who wants to set one up and run it.
 
First of all, I have time. I will run another one this year if anyone is interested.

From what I saw last year, there were a lot of good knives and a lot of knives that had really, really bad photography. I'm not sure, but I assume there were some ugly ones too. So, I would like to propose is a WIP KITH. As you make your knife, you put up pictures. That gives us a chance to see what is going on and offer advice as to finish, materials, and other things. We may lose some people who feel that is too large of a time commitment, but that is par for the course. As far as deadlines go, we could extend it slightly to give people extra time to account for pictures.

Everyone, let me know what you think. I would be happy to run it if there is interest. I would also be open to a traditional KITH that is open to everyone with slightly more defined rules. Remember, this is supposed to be fun. If this becomes a business where we expect to a receive a knife of equal or greater value that we sent, then I think we are missing the point.
 
Boy, I can't say I'm not tempted to step in and run it, but even with my annual Mini KITH, there are issues. It takes a lot of time and effort to get one of these going, and it is like herding cats at times. I have not entered the KITH in the past because I fee my work isnt up to par, yet. But I do like seeing who makes what.


-Xander
 
I like the WIP KITH idea, because I really enjoy watching well executed WIPs develop, but logistically it might be a pain to run.
 
Run it like a normal KITH but with say three tiers. The person in charge decides which tier a knife goes in. Nobody knows which tier their knife goes into or what tier the knife they win came from.

Just my 2 cents worth, obviously it's up to the guy running it. Feel free to disregard this message :D
 
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To Stacy's point, please notice how everyone is chipping in ideas about how things could/should go. I'm not saying anything about the quality of suggestions.... just that, as Stacy said, everyone has notions about how this should/could work.

That, in and of itself is okay... but what about when someone takes over and they don't use your idea? Some folks are just inclined to take their toys and leave the field. Others will grudginly participate, if for no other reason than to give themselves a chance to prove that there's something wrong with the way to run a KITH that was selected over their suggestion. These shenanigans detract from the fun for those that just want to exchange a knife.

And then there are always those that throw cold water on the event because everyone involved isn't a world-beater in the knife game. I will tell you straight up, whenever people with strong reputations said they weren't entering because the KITH wasn't up to the quality of previous years, I always felt they were talking about me. It's an awkward feeling. Do you bail for the good of the KITH, or really put your heart into it and hope you do something worthy?

Even now I see the same tensions manifesting themselves... people who want to participate but still don't think they aere ready... people who think changing the rules would make it so they could participate... and so on.

Really, folks, there are no easy answers here. People's egos are on the line, even if they won't admit it to themslves. That's what you are up against.

- Greg
 
Chipping in is good.

I don't think it's possible to make everyone happy and wouldn't try.

The question I'm asking is: Can a set of rules be defined by which most folks would be willing to abide that would engender enough participation to be worth the effort. If the general opinion is yes, let's discuss those rules. Then perhaps a poll to select the winning ruleset, and voluteers requested to attempt the project.

The ego issue is why my original proposal involves selecting the maker, not the finished knife. The maker would have to accept the selected tier before beginning any work. Those who feel they are being downgraded can either storm off or wow everyone in their class. Personally I'd be happy to see result as it would indicate buy-in by both other participants and the individual maker regarding each individual's participation. It is an assumption that the groups evaluating invitations/selections to each tier can establish a certain consistency among their selections. Happy to have that notion challenged.

Alternatively, someone with the patience can simply follow the current model. Obviously Stacy needs a break, and who can blame him.

-Daizee
 
These rules worked well...because there were very few;

SOME BASIC RULES :

The entrant must make, finish, and box the knife by or before December 1, 2010. Once finished, the maker can then post on the “2010 KITH - I’m Ready” thread. This thread will be posted starting October 1,2010. Photos of the completed knives can be posted on a separate “KITH Photos “ thread.
By December 10, 2010, I will make a shipping label and an envelope for each entrant, from those who have logged on the “I’M Ready” thread. I will have a third party randomly draw the labels and stick them in an envelope. The only examination of the names will be to assure no one is sent their own label. I will then email the name and address to each person in the KITH.

If you are interested in becoming a part of this:

Post on this thread,
“I’m In - I will make a knife by December 1,2010.”
Also, sent me an email to, sapelt@cox.net . Give me you real name, your forum name, shipping address, contact phone, and email.

At this point, that is all you need to do. I will keep track of those who are interested in participating. I will send out monthly reminders by email to keep us all going. If you don’t finish the knife, or if there is a conflict of schedule, there is no problem this way - the recipients are only drawn from those who have completed their entry by Dec. 1, 2010.

About the knives:
The entry can be any knife or bladesmith related item. Fixed blade, folder, axe, hawk, sword, etc. The only requirement is that it be made by the submitter ( For simplicity, I will refer to it as “the knife“). The workmanship should be of the best quality that you are able to do. Levels will vary depending on ability and experience, but if you feel your knife will be a suitable gift, then by all means enter. If you are just starting, and still learning the basics, perhaps sitting this year out would be best. The knife should be fully completed, and a sheath or case is advisable. You should provide all the pertinent information on the knife in a note to the recipient ( put this in the box). Outside services, such as Water Jet, Stabilization, and Heat Treatment are fine, but the workmanship on the knife should be yours.
The value level of the knife is up to you . It should be something that will be happily received by the new owner, but levels of value will vary, depending on the maker and their circumstances. It is a fun gift exchange, not a swap meet. It is not about what you get back for what you put in. Some knives will be worth $100, and others will be worth $400. I would suggest that you keep the knives in the general range of $200 in value, but it is totally up to you. No one is obligated to go beyond their means to enter this KITH.
Lets all have some fun and make some truly worthy knives.
 
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