2012 Forum Knife - Fate of the Knife Poll

[supratentorial]

Thank you, Charlie! And a big THANK YOU to Tony Bose.

 

[badboy8913]

I am in for at least one, maybe two if funds allow at the time. I am good with the two blade drawing or if we have to drop to one blade I am still in.

A big thank you to all of you who have put your time and effort in to this project.

 

[ranchmanben]

I'm still in for the two blade model. If a blade is dropped, I'm probably out.

Ben

 

[neeman]

To clear up a couple of rumors and misconceptions; Tony Bose gives us his blessing (I talked to him today). He said that copying him is the sincerest form of flattery, and he thanks us for the compliment!!!!!:thumbup:

If Spark orders 200 knives and they are as the drawing indicates, then there is no extra tooling charge, because, like last year, GEC will use the tooling for further models of their own. I think this is a HUGE accommodation by GEC, and I say Thanks to them for it!! They designed a knife that we and they can both use!!:thumbup: Let's commit to buying those 200 knives!!

The price has gone up from last year, but when has anything gone down??

Charlie,

For clarity

If we order 200 knives, the price will drop from $125 to $100
If we do not order 200 knives the price is $125

Correct?

 

[neeman]

With respect, I think you are 180 degrees out of phase with reality.

You realize that companies who sell their products for profit pay people to design those products right? I mean Tony Bose isn't paying Case every time they sell a knife with his name on it I assure you. And while we are not professional knife designers, nor did we actually design the knife (more like picked out the drapes and the carpet), our last effort seems to have served GEC well enough.

The building of 200 knives for a group of people who make up the "regulars" in the Bladeforums Traditional Forum (whom I have to believe collectively represent the biggest customer GEC has), is their privilege, not ours.

While our knives will be unique, they will not be substantially different from the subsequent runs that GEC will build, and we will buy.

If we in fact are being saddled with all the initial tooling costs for a knife that they intend to continue producing, shame on them!

Thank You !!

 

[Nixelplix]

If paying for the tooling is part of the deal, then it's part of the deal.

 

[rbmcmjr]

I'll be buying whatever.

I would prefer to drop the wharncliff and keep the clip but that's just me.

 

[waynorth]

I have no control over pricing, Neeman. But an order of 200 knives gives the purchaser a substantial discount over a smaller order. I know that from ordering my Harness Jacks. The cost of the various set-ups gets spread over more pieces.
Spark has to make some profit for sticking his neck out to buy that many knives ($20,000!!). His final price is up to him. If they don't sell at $125, he'll have to lower them, but that should not be discussed here for obvious reasons.
And it leaves us in the enviable position of buying or not, as we choose. And it takes the pressure off the volunteers. I recall a solid week of every spare minute packing and shipping knives (not me, but some nameless heroes out there!!)
I personally have spent hundreds of hours over the last three years on BF knives, posting, consulting, ordering, discussing, on and on. I am not complaining, but on second sober thought, I'm O.K. with the deal, even if they are $125.

Charlie,

For clarity

If we order 200 knives, the price will drop from $125 to $100
If we do not order 200 knives the price is $125

Correct?

 

[neeman]

Charlie,

Thanks
End of discussion

I now rest my case
Opps I meant GEC

 

[mike Berkovitch]

I am not voting this time, as I can't commit right now, I have large expenses till the end of the year. If I can I will buy one.

Mike

 

[synghyn]

I haven't voted yet because some of the questions asked haven't been answered. I don't have a problem at $125, I'll pay that for the knife we voted on. The photo in the origional post is what we voted on and I realize or expect that there would be some variation (and no bearings, relieved liners I think is a no brainer, with way higher costs). But the drawings are not the knife that I voted on and accepted at the end at all. As has already been said, we voted on basically a slimline type of pattern, turkish clip and warnecliffe. The drawings depict what to me is nearly the opposite of this in a fairly chunky knife with pretty wide blades. It is only very superficially related to the pattern that I understood us to be voting on. If the drawings are truly indicative of what we will get I'm not sure if I'm in or not at this point, maybe it will grow on me, but I'm leaning toward not. And believe me I mean no disrespect to GEC or the volunteers, it has just gone in a different direction than expected.

Jon

 

[neilrazer]

If Kevin is correct (and I'll assume he is ) then maybe that explains why it's ok. Plus Case has a wharncliffe trapper and it's not a Tony Bose pattern (at least TB isn't in the model number) so I think GEC should be safe in that regard.

Nathan

Did anyone consider asking Case to make the forum knife since it seems to be the same or very similar to their Wharncliffe Mini Trapper? Maybe they'd have no interest in what would probably be a small run for them, but if they did, it would also probably be easier for them to make the original price point of around $100. I have one in smooth orange bone & I think the size is closer to ideal for me than one that's pushing 4". Maybe if GEC scaled down their drawing or even just made the blades shorter enough to clear the pin, the blades could sit lower when closed as well.

That said, I definitely am in for one by GEC whether it is as shown for $125 or minus the clip for $100 or anything reasonably close.

I'm pretty new here & rarely have anything to add to a thread, but these all seemed to be things that I was thinking about that hadn't been discussed. This will be my first forum knife and I've really been looking forward to getting one. Don't give up!

Neil

 

[timcsaw]

Why do I want this (or any other) BF knife?

It supports the Forum, its membership and the volunteers who've worked so hard to design, and coordinate the creation.
It will provide me with a quality product that I know I can trust and be proud to own.
It will be unique and "1 of 200" and there will be no more produced (even a future run for the public will not have the BF stamp).
I/we had a hand in "designing" the knife (how often do we get to do that?)!
I may see someone, someday with the production model of this knife, and I can say - "Look at MINE! IT is one of the few originals!".

 

[FLymon]

Without revising anything I have posted previously, I have decided to definitely buy one of these (if they happen, and I hope they do) to support our volunteers for their efforts.

That being said, I would MUCH rather see this knife at 3.5" rather than 3.86", but I am down for one either way.

 

[Peruna1998]

We did not pay for tooling!!

Charlie,

I did not think we did then. Thank you for the clarification. Sometimes we all forget that prices do go up.

 

[Peruna1998]

I have no control over pricing, Neeman. But an order of 200 knives gives the purchaser a substantial discount over a smaller order. I know that from ordering my Harness Jacks. The cost of the various set-ups gets spread over more pieces.
Spark has to make some profit for sticking his neck out to buy that many knives ($20,000!!). His final price is up to him. If they don't sell at $125, he'll have to lower them, but that should not be discussed here for obvious reasons.
And it leaves us in the enviable position of buying or not, as we choose. And it takes the pressure off the volunteers. I recall a solid week of every spare minute packing and shipping knives (not me, but some nameless heroes out there!!)
I personally have spent hundreds of hours over the last three years on BF knives, posting, consulting, ordering, discussing, on and on. I am not complaining, but on second sober thought, I'm O.K. with the deal, even if they are $125.

Charlie,

I don't want to speak for everyone else, but I think it is fair to say we all appreciate the committees's, Spark's, and your dedication to this project.

 

[wintermute]

OK,

Looks like alot of you are looking for some answers from the committee. Let me see if I can answer some of them.

- In the past, each year's forum knife was run completely by bladeforums volunteers. The polls, the decision-making process, contacting knife companies, getting costs, negotiating, working out details, placing orders, money collection, taking delivery, and shipping out the knives. Part of this process also involved putting up a RIDICULOUS amount of personal collateral on the order by one extemely (crazy?) generous forum member. That can't happen any more, and I think that you all would agree with me that no one should have to put up large quantities of their own money to make this thing happen. On top of that, Bladeforums is Spark's intellectual property, and I hope you all understand that he wants to protect that.

So, the process this year involves the committee, originally Ash and myself, has swollen to much larger ranks with our Mods, Knarfeng and Peregrin really helping out, cnas122, waynorth, and Bastid have been really helpful consulting us with their knowledge from years' of cat wrangling for the forum knives, and most visibly by our resident artist, IVANKERLEY. The reason why this year's knife got off to such a late start is that the Mods worked out with Spark the new process that will (hopefully) result in this year's knife. The committee's main roll is to work with all of you to get the design figured out, then once we come up with the specifications, Spark takes over with contacting manufacturers, negotiating, ordering, taking delivery, and distributing the knives. Of course, we still have some involvement (I should say A LOT) in this process, but this is mainly Spark's roll. This year Canal Street and Queen were very unresponsive, but GEC designed a new knife to meet our specs.

That being said, this adds cost to the knife. Please understand that Spark has a business to run and he can't lose money on this, so there is some mark-up. Plus he's fronting the $20,000 or so up front to order the knives. Part of the higher cost, as I understand it is that GEC wants to charge us $5000 in tooling costs to build the new knife. As I understand it, last year they only charged us as much as they would on a "normal" knife run. I've asked Spark to negotiate this with GEC and to pass the savings on to us. That is currently up in the air right now.

This year Canal Street and Queen were very unresponsive, but GEC designed a new knife to meet our specs, which included a photo of a Bose wharncliffe trapper. Some people have said "Hey, did anyone ask Tony if we could have someone else steal his pattern", and some have said "hey, that GEC line drawing doesn't look EXACTLY like that Bose knife". I think those two statements cancel each other out. GEC came up with a design influenced by the Bose knife, but made it their own. Some people said they don't want anything changed, some wants the blades stick out less (very tough with nail nicks on the same side) or a thinner handle (which would pretty much turn it into a regular ol' GEC #48). We're not going to ask GEC for any major design changes at this time. This would likely result in additional cost, and they may not be amenable to it because it's not a custom, it's their design and interpretation, and who knows, they may have already built some of the tooling. Plus a significant proportion of forum dwellers said they like it as-is. We ARE asking GEC (through Kevin) to change the swedge on the wharncliffe blade from a "cut" to a "drawn" swedge.

I think that answers all of the major questions. My brain hurts.

 

[stevenkelby]

Thanks wintermute

I didn't vote at all this year, was away for 6 months (NOT incarcerated if it sounds like that!), and will take whatever gets made.

One point I'm confused about, I thought I remembered last year paying for the knives months and months before delivery, before the tooling was made I assumed, and if everyone did that, then there's the $20'000k or whatever, and security for the whole project before any costs are paid out. I don't see why anyone had to put up any more money out of their own pocket? Obviously I'm wrong but how?

I do understand and agree that 200 knives is too much for volunteers to be handling the project, it's just too much work and I think it's a great idea to run it this way this year, as a business venture, not a volunteer project Also, it avoids suspicion (NOT by me but I read posts about it) about what happened to the extra money left over at the end of the previous years projects (if any), as it was supposed to be a non-profit thing.

Personally I don't care how it happens I'm just super grateful that it happens at all!

THANK YOU to the whole team.

 

[OldPhysics]

I voted to go full-bore.

Additionally, I'd like to thank everyone who has put so much effort into this year's forum knife.

While I've never helped out with a knife buy, I've done very similar things in the past -- and I know just how much effort and trouble are involved.

Again, thanks to everyone who has put so much time into this. And an extra "THANKS!" to His Piratical Highness for taking on the financial risk.

 

[OldPhysics]

OK,

Looks like alot of you are looking for some answers from the committee. Let me see if I can answer some of them.

- In the past, each year's forum knife was run completely by bladeforums volunteers. The polls, the decision-making process, contacting knife companies, getting costs, negotiating, working out details, placing orders, money collection, taking delivery, and shipping out the knives. Part of this process also involved putting up a RIDICULOUS amount of personal collateral on the order by one extemely (crazy?) generous forum member. That can't happen any more, and I think that you all would agree with me that no one should have to put up large quantities of their own money to make this thing happen. On top of that, Bladeforums is Spark's intellectual property, and I hope you all understand that he wants to protect that.

So, the process this year involves the committee, originally Ash and myself, has swollen to much larger ranks with our Mods, Knarfeng and Peregrin really helping out, cnas122, waynorth, and Bastid have been really helpful consulting us with their knowledge from years' of cat wrangling for the forum knives, and most visibly by our resident artist, IVANKERLEY. The reason why this year's knife got off to such a late start is that the Mods worked out with Spark the new process that will (hopefully) result in this year's knife. The committee's main roll is to work with all of you to get the design figured out, then once we come up with the specifications, Spark takes over with contacting manufacturers, negotiating, ordering, taking delivery, and distributing the knives. Of course, we still have some involvement (I should say A LOT) in this process, but this is mainly Spark's roll. This year Canal Street and Queen were very unresponsive, but GEC designed a new knife to meet our specs.

That being said, this adds cost to the knife. Please understand that Spark has a business to run and he can't lose money on this, so there is some mark-up. Plus he's fronting the $20,000 or so up front to order the knives. Part of the higher cost, as I understand it is that GEC wants to charge us $5000 in tooling costs to build the new knife. As I understand it, last year they only charged us as much as they would on a "normal" knife run. I've asked Spark to negotiate this with GEC and to pass the savings on to us. That is currently up in the air right now.

This year Canal Street and Queen were very unresponsive, but GEC designed a new knife to meet our specs, which included a photo of a Bose wharncliffe trapper. Some people have said "Hey, did anyone ask Tony if we could have someone else steal his pattern", and some have said "hey, that GEC line drawing doesn't look EXACTLY like that Bose knife". I think those two statements cancel each other out. GEC came up with a design influenced by the Bose knife, but made it their own. Some people said they don't want anything changed, some wants the blades stick out less (very tough with nail nicks on the same side) or a thinner handle (which would pretty much turn it into a regular ol' GEC #48). We're not going to ask GEC for any major design changes at this time. This would likely result in additional cost, and they may not be amenable to it because it's not a custom, it's their design and interpretation, and who knows, they may have already built some of the tooling. Plus a significant proportion of forum dwellers said they like it as-is. We ARE asking GEC (through Kevin) to change the swedge on the wharncliffe blade from a "cut" to a "drawn" swedge.

I think that answers all of the major questions. My brain hurts.

Wintermute, you are a real prince. Thanks for all the effort you're putting in here.

Hope that "brain hurt" goes away, quickly. My usual prescription is a nice, cold beer.