2018 KITH - ADVANCED

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I kind of see it as a "juried" KITH, which seems to me would be difficult to pull off. Unless you are going to limit it to people who are actually journeymen, which I could see...
 
Metalhead0483 said:
I kind of see it as a "juried" KITH, which seems to me would be difficult to pull off. Unless you are going to limit it to people who are actually journeymen, which I could see...
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Many of us have personally handled JS knives, and know if we can meet that standard.

I personally consider myself an intermediate. I’m not an expert, or advanced. I can make a symmetrical knife with awesome heat treat. I could pass the JS test based on the examples I’ve seen. I think we have to be honest with ourselves about whether we can do this level of flow, fit and finish. I think I would be the bottom rung in a kith like this.

I know I can’t make a Salem, or DHIII quality knife at this point, no matter how much time you give me.
 
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I agree that the most likely scenario if someone starts rating people would be some bad feelings. Appointing judges would likely only make it worse.

What about this:
1) Make it an open KITH for experienced makers.

2) State what you think is experienced, giving examples of types of work and quality of finish, etc. Suggest that anyone unsure that it applies to them sit it out and see what happens this year.

3) Make the KITH with two categories - advanced and intermediate. Let those who feel they are of sufficient experience enter, and when their blade is done, they can enter it in the category that they see as fit for the final project.

4) Set a finish date of January 1, 2019.

Hopefully, the way the blades come out and the person's self-honesty will make things come out good. I think the above simple rules will eliminate most problems.
 
I’ve had quite a few discussions regarding minimum standards in Kiths over the past few years. The concerns listed are the same ones every time. I don’t know if there is a way to do this well. Some people have good awareness of their strengths and weaknesses, others live in an echo chamber where their friends and family tell them they are great, when their work is very basic.

JT, if I’m overstepping, I’ll delete this post, but this is what I think an experienced maker will consider:

The knife should be symmetrical from side to side. Plunges, handle, guard/bolsters should be mirror image side to side.

The fit and finish should be free of obvious flaws.

Pattern welded steel should be free of cold shunts, inclusions or delaminations.

You should be confident your edge is a good compromise between cutting and toughness. Have you made or tested a few dozen examples to see where that edge needs to be for that steel or application? If you’ve only made 10 knives or so, you couldn’t possibly have that down yet. Unless by accident.

Have you tested to failure? What did you learn?

Flow. This is subjective. Look at more experienced makers knives. Look at how the elements all work together. Now look at yours. Can you look at your earlier knives and see what you missed? What was off on the flow?

Choice of materials. This goes with flow, as well as intended purpose.

There’s probably more. I hope I’m not offending anyone. I don’t police the Kiths I have run, as they are primarily a learning tool for novice to intermediate makers. Even with these, some people have overestimated their skill. That is to be expected, as making a cutoff is difficult. Some have ignored the basics of making sure the blade is evenly sanded, with no 36g belt gouges still showing. That’s the exception, not the norm though. This kith is just moving that minimum up. As an example, my submission for the winter kith this year would not be good enough for this current kith. My handle wasn’t perfectly symmetrical, and I had edge damage that I fixed, but there was still visual evidence that I had damage.
 
What if after all knives are made and pictures posted people vote on what they think are the best 3 or 5 or 10 etc..
Top place will get 2nd places knife and viseversa. 3rd and 4th place will switch, 5th and 6th....... Would you get something closer to equal value of yours that way? May give some incentive to step it up a little more ? If the crowd voted there would be no hard feelings toward any judge. If you entered a 100 dollar knife or a 1000 dollar you should get something close in return. Wouldnt have to exclude people and maybe more advanced makers would join knowing it will be fair
 
When I think about a KITH I don't really imagine that top makers are going to put their top work into it. Maybe a 10 hour blade but not a 80 hour blade. If that's what is planned it should be a privet thing because what is made will have some substantial value and even things like material value will be important.

You might think of regular KITH being: hey guys we are doing a wine tasting to night bring a bottle. Versus: we are having wine tasting tonight bring a estate cab from the west coast. Versus: we are having a wine tasting tonight and it must be aged a min of 10 years and values at $150. FYI I don't go to that last party.

I would like to be in a KITH where I knew that I had to bring my best and have min materials. It also might be possible to make a checklist to help people self eliminate.
 
Spalted said:
If you entered a 100 dollar knife or a 1000 dollar you should get something close in return. Wouldnt have to exclude people and maybe more advanced makers would join knowing it will be fair
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I can make knife for this KITH . Now about value ...............same steel , same wood , same shape , same finish quality ........same HT ............there is no way that MY knife can worth SAME as same knife made from D DevinT . And that is obviously problem here..........
 
First off from the very start I said we are not excluding anyone by experience level. I dont see how doing an advanced KITH is in any way inappropriate. Maybe people are confused by what I meant by advanced. I meant the knife is of an advanced level not the maker. I’m not trying to put down any other maker or there work. Hell I shudder when I look back and think about the knives I made when I first started. But as everyone knows we all must start somewhere (story below). I simply want to start a KITH where there is a higher level of standards set. If you can meet those standards great your welcome to join no mater how long you been making knives. We are not judging you and saying your a bad knife maker if you can’t meet these standards. You just have not reached that level yet. That’s fine, you will one day if you keep working at it.

I think in general people today are so sensitive about being devided up into classes and think everything should be fair. Life is not fair and you only get out what you put in. People in this day and age are so caught up in “feelings”, feelings are feelings not facts. Trust me, I was there my self when I started making knives. I felt that my knives where great because I worked so hard on them but that was false. A good exzample I will give happened years ago and it has stuck with me till this day. I had a kid that wanted me to teach him to make a knife. I gave him the basics and he spent a lot of time working on it. He was so proud of it and rightly so, he worked very hard. He then had the opportunity to show it to a rather high end knife maker. With his eyes beaming He handed it to him and asked “what do you think”. This knife maker looked it over quickly and handed it back and said “well, we all have to start somewhere”. This young man was crushed, why could he not see all the hard work and effort he thought. But it’s so true, hard work and effort do not equal quality. You have to develop the skills and experience that goes with it. Some people pick things up crazy fast where others struggle for a long time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning slowly.

Now onto something I know people think but never speak about. But sense we are being so open why not right? Now remember just because your a new knife maker does not mean you fall into this “taboo” category. But this is a very real concern That others have expressed to me as well in other KITH threads. It has been apparent on other KITH’s in the past that there where issues with dare I say “gold digging”, not their words mind you. Now befor everyone freaks and grabs the torches let me clarify. To say every single person that wants to join a KITH is a good honest person that truly wants to do the best he can would be a lie. You will allways have people looking at the KITH’s as an easy way to “score” a great knife from an established smith. It’s a fact of life not everyone is honest. So why not set a level of expectations so it evens the playing field a little. I know a KITH is about what you give not what you get. But no one wants to get something that was just tossed together so thy could enter the KITH.

I sure hope I have not offended anybody as that was not my intention at all. I just wanted to lay out why I think doing an advanced KITH is a good idea. But to all the new makers out there I say keep working hard. Learn as you go and enjoy the journey.
 
Well I'm interested. Since its nearly a year out if my pieces are looking like they can fit in I will participate. If not I will pass.
 
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Natlek said:
I can make knife for this KITH . Now about value ...............same steel , same wood , same shape , same finish quality ........same HT ............there is no way that MY knife can worth SAME as same knife made from D DevinT . And that is obviously problem here..........
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Value is partly or mostly based on how well established a maker is. That’s a separate issue from minimum standards in material choice.
 
You want to do a KITH.

Invite those you want to participate, then have them invite others who they want to participate. Keep everyone on the same page as to expectations.

Bam! you have your KITH and only those who meet your criteria involved.

It is really as simple as that.
 
That is a pretty good idea Adam. An invitational KITH. Your chain invitational method makes it pretty simple.

The only hole in the plan is people who may feel slighted that no one invited them.
 
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AVigil said:
You want to do a KITH.

Invite those you want to participate, then have them invite others who they want to participate. Keep everyone on the same page as to expectations.

Bam! you have your KITH and only those who meet your criteria involved.

It is really as simple as that.
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This.


A curated KITH is really the only way to establish a baseline of talent, where everybody gets a fair exchange. However, organizing something like that, may be tricky. It takes someone with a pretty advanced skill level, and an objective eye, who's opinion on quality isn't dominated by their tastes. It's why there are only a handful of ABS judges, and every year someone fails JS or MS (usually multiples) where some other JS or MS they're friends with assured them, they were gonna pass with flying colors, based on their opinions about what the test criteria should be, versus what it actually is.

Or some maker who's "hot shit" from a "style" perspective, will fail, because while they may be blowing people's minds with their style, they lack the fundamentals of fit, finish, and accuracy, which are the only real criteria for passing. Of course, even the judges, will feel differently, and know they're influenced by taste, no matter how hard they try not to be, which is why you've got multiple judges, and a majority vote to pass.

Even still, every year, they get ridiculed for "not being fair", or being "irrelevant" because this or that guy with a vocal customer base, feels their favorite maker was wronged, which he didn't pass because of his sheer "awesomeness". Or people who've handled other JS knives, and think "Oh I can make a knife as good or better", that fail, because they don't understand that a knife can be dog ugly and still pass, as long as it meets the fundamental criteria for construction quality.






However, I guess JT is saying "advanced construction techniques" versus "advanced skill/quality level", which is a different thing of course. Although, still tricky, I think he's simply saying "you know if you're a beginner, so stay out, otherwise, make something more complicated than usual, and do your best work".



Personally, I'd join a curated "advanced skill maker" KITH (tentatively, pending a list), but once you get to a certain level, it's not that hard to get almost any maker you respect, to be willing to do a knife-exchange with you. I've got probably half a dozen pending such trades with makers I personally consider, "top tier", and I've only ever had one or two people refuse, simply because of time constraints.

I do think a curated top level KITH could work, but that would probably have to be organized outside of the forums, most of the top level makers either lost interest, or got run off the forums, years ago. Blade would be the most likely place to organize such a thing, and you'd need someone to run it that is friends with a lot of makers, but preferably, moves between the different circles, if you want any variety. Lets be honest, we have some pretty large primary, and sub-groups of makers, that are each pretty insular in their own ways.
 
AVigil said:
True, but that is the beauty of it.

Those not invited can do their own invitational KITH as well.
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That's a really good idea. If the invitee declines, choose again? And when to stop inviting would be the only two questions.
 
I think that the judging is going to put additional workload and grief on the "Pool" of judges and having a number of judges that can come to agreement on where a Blade finishes in the judging...Not everyone can be a Validictorian one person has to graduate last in the class. This may bruise a few egos and cause bitter feelings because of the Tight Judging Criteria.

I would think that if you wanted to enter the KITH that you submit a number of knife photos to a panel of judges ahead of the event and allow the judges time to evaluate the work. If your work meets their level of expectation you would be entered into a group that is of a similar work level.
 
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