2nd Amendment

S

shane justice

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
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A few words from history....

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
~ Patrick Henry

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?
~ Patrick Henry

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

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Since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
~ Patrick Henry

"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would."
--- John Adams, Boston Gazette, Sept. 5, 1763,reprinted in 3 The Works of John Adams 438 (Charles F. Adams ed., 1851).

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime]. When firearms go, all goes,
we need them every hour."
George Washington ~ (Address to 1st session of Congress)

"The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subject peoples to
possess arms. So let's not have any talk about native militias."

~ ADOLF HITLER (Hitler's Secret Conversations, 1941-44, Farrar, Strauss and Young, 1953)

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)
~ Chairman Mao


"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ("Gandhi, an Autobiography," M.K. Gandhi,
446)
~ Mahatma Ghandi

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe." (Matthew 11:21)


Amen

There has been a lot of discussion about applying the 2nd amendment in today's world. Many people hoped that if they could decipher excatly what the spirit of the words meant they could, in essence, disallow our right to bear arms. especially when we look at words like "militia"...and "well regulated". Many of the gun control advocates believe that this gives government the power to eradicate firearms of any nature in order to "regulate" ownership out of existence.

Here's what Jefferson, himself, said about that.

"On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to William Johnson)

Jefferson predicted that the possibility of a tyrannical form of government could and would attempt to "re-interpret" what the 2nd amenmdment determines to be out rights.

Here's on from Diane Fienstein...

US Senator, If I could have banned them all- 'Mr. and Mrs. America turn in
your guns' -I would have!" (Statement on TV program 69 Minutes, Feb 5 1995)

And one from Tricky Bill...
(US President, has sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution, (not to violate it, criticize it, and belittle it)) "When we got organized as a country, [and] wrote a fairly radical Constitution, with a radical Bill of Rights, giving radical amounts of freedom to Americans, it was assumed that Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly...When personal freedom is
being abused, you have to move to limit it." (April 19 1994, on MTV)
~ Bill Clinton

And finally, one that explains ALL of the reasons that ANTI-gunners exist...

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
~ Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis)


There you go.

Shane
 
my head hurts now, from all the reading i've done tonight here at BF, and i'm gonna make this short and sweet.

they'll pry my guns and knives from my cold dead hands before i give up my right to keep and bear arms of any kind.
 
Thanks for the great quotes, I'm copying them.

Fiddleback, already done! I love early voting!
 
Shane, great post with relevant facts and quotes. Britain is experiencing the same surges in violent crime as those seen in Australia, and for the same reasons.

Unfortunately, the truth means nothing to those that are too blind to see it, to foolish to act on it, or to evil to uphold it.

I fear the worst will come from this years election.
 
shane justice said:
Since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
Click to expand...

Despite owning guns for over 20 years without incident or issue, I was unable to meet the costly new requirements of the laws and gave my rifles away rather than surrender them to the police.

Why? Because I am law abiding. Fool me hey?

bruce
 
Chain emails, carefully constructed to sound logical but short of historical accuracy, will convince those prepared to believe.
Can't we do better?

The original post is a mishmash of three different presentations:

1) quotations by historical figures, to lend an air of authority to the rest,
2) a series of supposed gun controls followed by roundups for extermination,
3) a cautionary tale from Australia's experience.

Read the Urban Legends Reference Pages on Australia:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Barry Goldwater said, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."
Does that mean lying in the defense of truth is OK, too?

I believe Barack Obama and his followers are deluded if not actual enemies of our nation.
Surely there must be more convincing evidence of this than a poorly constructed, inaccurate mass email.
 
I personally don't need to know any stats or history beyond what I have experienced right here in the US in my own 40 plus year lifetime.

I have seen restrictions attempted and accomplished under one party, then rolled back (partially) under another.

I see that many modern politicians are incapable of understanding the Constitution, but seem bent on cherry-picking those parts which they feel are important, and intent on wishing away those they feel unimportant, or even dangerous.

I have been waffling in an attempt to be objective, but no more.

While both parties have things to offer and things to be ashamed of, only one (with a chance of winning) offers a nominee who offers a chance of preserving, at least for a while longer, some semblance of constitutional sanity.

Andy
 
The Second Amendment is not at all unclear.

Because the government needs a militia, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", (so that they may also protect themselves from the government).
 
joe-bob said:
The Second Amendment is not at all unclear.

Because the government needs a militia, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", (so that they may also protect themselves from the government).
Click to expand...

1. The Second Amendment is not at all unclear, the "People" in that amendment means what it means in all other uses in the Constitution. It ain't the State or the government. This has, finally, been expressly recognized by the Supreme Court.

2. Political leaders at the time, including Jefforson, expressly said that the People needed to be armed to protect themselves -- including pretecting themselves FROM the government. Jefferson cited a contemporary Italian criminologist who had observed that when arms are outlawed, only outlaws would have arms.

3. NO reputable historian would agree that the Second Amendment protected a right of the government. One clown wrote a supposed historical study that "proved" few had back then arms, but his "research" turned out to be faked. So NO historian.

4. The "militia" was all able-bodied adult male citizens - the People in arms. Ohio still has a Militia Act dating from its statehood.

5. The right to have the means to defend yourself does not originate in the Constitution any more than the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Bill of Rights was to expressly RECOGNIZE rights, not create them. It's passage was a condition of approval of the Constitution. No recognition of God-given rights, no Constitution.
 
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Thanks for the re-read.

I'm sure many law abiding tax paying citizens of Australia became criminals overnight when they violated the law of the land when the law went to too far.


STR
 
I have been a student of history long enough to realize that privately owned firearms are a barrier against holocaust. (Holocaust insurance, perhaps?)


Coincidentally....There's been many, many, many searches for remaining family in Serbia. no one can find any trace of them.

Relatives who went there were met with silence, hostile stares, and turned away upon asking about our family, especially if they mentioned WW2.

Curiousity to thar response led us to discover Jasenovac, an extremely little known chapter of WW2.

Google it. It really does make for very interesting reading. Here's a couple pages about it: WARNING: It's pretty saddening, and distubing stuff.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4506666011464565164 (this one's a movie)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp (the short, simple version)

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/jasenovac/index_en.html (much more extensive reading)

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/jasenovac/index_en.html
(even more extensive reading)

I really don't know if my family had been involved in that horror or not, but it does lend some background to the area, and of the more recent events involving Milosevic. For me it tied up alot of loose ends regarding statements from people, why my Great Grandfather hated Catholics, etc. The fact that my family MAY have been murdered during those events does tend to bring it home in a personal way that I had not experienced before.

We all have an inclination to say, "it can't happen today! that was a long time ago! we're a civilized society!" The time span is really only a blink in the eye with regards to history. I'd imagine alot of folks said the same thing before they gave up arms.
 
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Just remember that the GOP runs on fear.

So they want you to be afraid.

The Supremes just affirmed the second but you guys are still so afraid.

Be afraid of them taking your guns away. Be afraid of the terrorists. Be afraid of muslims.

It's a lot easier for them to pick your pocket when your wetting your pants;)

I'm not afraid. :thumbup:

I don't see that the Democratic congress has passed any regressive legislation regarding guns in the last 2 years and I don't see a Democratic administration taking anything away from my gun cabinet.

Happy days will be here soon! I'm loving it.:D;)
 
Regardless of the validity of these statistics one thing is true. Every single law restricting the ownership of firearms by US citizens is unconstitutional.
 
hollowdweller said:
Just remember that the GOP runs on fear.

So they want you to be afraid.

The Supremes just affirmed the second but you guys are still so afraid.

Be afraid of them taking your guns away. Be afraid of the terrorists. Be afraid of muslims.

It's a lot easier for them to pick your pocket when your wetting your pants;)

I'm not afraid. :thumbup:

I don't see that the Democratic congress has passed any regressive legislation regarding guns in the last 2 years and I don't see a Democratic administration taking anything away from my gun cabinet.

Happy days will be here soon! I'm loving it.:D;)
Click to expand...

You don't know much about Obama's history do you?
 
Count me among the millions who loves his country, recognizes its shortcomings, but abhors the divisions that come with politics. I'm supposed to adhere to the standards of one media, ignore the other, and call it wrong, hate 50% of the country, blindly follow one candidate, and not recognize the valid arguments the other side makes.

Let's get this election over with so I don't have to listen to 50% of the country call the other 50% marxists/nazis/communists/socialists/jerks/uneducated/losers/scary/sexist/racist.

People here have quoted the founders of this country: the same founders who worked against a two party system for the reasons we see today, every day.

We have a lot of challenges in front of us, and the artificial divisions that Obama, McCain, Palin, and Biden shout from their podiums evaporate as soon as this process is over. Historically in our own country, and worldwide today, our two candidates are very, very similar. This whole process has pumped a lot of negative energy into our entire country.

Sorry for the rant. HI makes some cool stuff, when I get a house I imagine I'll get one to split some wood for the fire :)
 
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