3V vs S35VN characteristics?

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Noctis3880 said:
Whoa, the datasheet I read shows the same wear resistance as S30V. Are you saying Crucible might have fabricated those results?

And did you get the same impression with Strider's run of S35VN? Also curious if you compared Spyderco's S35VN with their S30V.

The only real reason I ask is because you do have S35VN ranked in the same category here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

So my question is whether it's the steel or the heat treatment.
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While I am not Jim, I have tested Spyderco's S35VN against their S30V, and the s35 didn't hold a candle to the S30v. Seriously, it wasn't even close. If you want to see the testing then click on the link in my sig.
 
Noctis3880 said:
Whoa, the datasheet I read shows the same wear resistance as S30V. Are you saying Crucible might have fabricated those results?

And did you get the same impression with Strider's run of S35VN? Also curious if you compared Spyderco's S35VN with their S30V.

The only real reason I ask is because you do have S35VN ranked in the same category here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

So my question is whether it's the steel or the heat treatment.
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The S35VN blades that I ranked were Mules.

I doubt Crucible made anything up, but I have seen CATRA results and at the same hardness S30V does have better edge retention, in my testing they scored in the same category.

I am sure a lot of it's the heat treatment as in not being near hard enough.
 
Does anyone know how hard ZT/Kershaw is running on their S35VN on the 0550 ? Hopefully Thomas will see this thread and give us some informative insight into the S35VN steel. :)
 
CARman said:
Does anyone know how hard ZT/Kershaw is running on their S35VN on the 0550 ? Maybe Thomas will see this thread and give us some informative insight into the S35VN steel. :)
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That 0550 has a pretty thick grind so I don't see a problem there.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I don't mean any offense, but the cutting you outlined above is no where near as taxing as cutting 9 feet of 3/8 inch sisal rope non stop. It is one of the most demanding things a knife can do.

And also, aluminum cans are extremely easy to cut, and won't damage even the thinnest of edges. At least in my experience.

There is no denying that S35VN is a HUGE step down from S30V. It's been recognized by many people who formally test the steel. Most people won't notice, since they actually never cut anything. Haha
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Yeah I tried to use S35VN at work cutting cardboard ect and it was a miserable failure at best, went back to S30V and S90V at that time.

Using S30V, S90V and CTS-XHP at work now.

Carrying my S30V (59.5 HRC) Umnumzaan currently at work and it's doing great, hit steel with it yesterday (Accident) and it didn't noticeably hurt the edge. :thumbup:
 
I don't have a knife with S35vn, but I have done a ton of research, and everything I've read tells me that it's "Suppose" to be a good steel. With that said, the reviews I've read, and watched, All indicate it to be not such a great steel.

I've read of a couple of steels out there that ended up performing way different that what the manufacturer had orginaly intended them to do. CPM 3V being one of them, I've read that it performs much better than what they had originally thought it would. I also see that there are a lot of people out there that just don't want to believe the this, especially with the followers of the S35VN steel. Some just won't accept that it isn't doing as well as it suppose to on paper.


DBAR
 
Can we get some edge close-up of before and after cutting results? I would like to believe but I see too many variables and vague descriptions of performance.

CTS, in your video I see when you are slicing paper that the belly of the blade is causing more tearing than other parts (first vid). To me this was caused by the cutting technique used on the cutting board and rope and was at fault for the results more than the steel. (Not being critical just calling it how I see it)

Jim, your results are more normal though you note less edge retention. Could this be due to the loss of .05% carbon, 1% vaniadum, and addition of .5% niobium? To me and my limited metal knowledge a 1% loss in vaniadum means a 25% loss overall in wear resistance compared to S30V?

Now, I realize the performance will not be so drastic but its gotta be something you can see. Without using it its hard to say but from what I see I would expect S35VN to have better edge retention and stability (sharpness and ability to hold shape) but have less wear resistance which is a factor of material loss during cutting. That's another thing, I think wear resistance and edge retention are still getting mixed up in some cases leading to false perceptions. Wear resistance in no way represents sharpness but it seems that's the comparison trying to be made.
 
Thanks for all this information. It has certainly got me rethinking two knives I was intending to buy

But let me get it right. Are you saying that S35VN is OK (tough, sharpenable) but just not HTd hard enough. Or, are you saying that S35VN is only middling steel, hard HT or not

Thanks :)
 
This is what the manufacturer says:

"CPM S35VN is a martensitic stainless steel designed to offer
improved toughness over CPM S30V. It is also easier to machine
and polish than CPM S30V. Its chemistry has been rebalanced
so that it forms some niobium carbides along with vanadium and
chromium carbides. Substituting niobium carbides for some of the
vanadium carbides makes CPM S35VN about 15-20% tougher
than CPM S30V without any loss of wear resistance. CPM S35VN’s
improved toughness gives it better resistance to edge chipping.
Because both vanadium and niobium carbides are harder and more
effective than chromium carbides in providing wear resistance,
the CPM stainless blade steels offer improved edge retention
over conventional high chromium steels such as 440C and D2.
The CPM process produces very homogeneous, high quality
steel characterized by superior dimensional stability, grindability,
and toughness compared to steels produced by conventional
melting practices."
 
knifenut1013 said:
Can we get some edge close-up of before and after cutting results? I would like to believe but I see too many variables and vague descriptions of performance.

CTS, in your video I see when you are slicing paper that the belly of the blade is causing more tearing than other parts (first vid). To me this was caused by the cutting technique used on the cutting board and rope and was at fault for the results more than the steel. (Not being critical just calling it how I see it)

Jim, your results are more normal though you note less edge retention. Could this be due to the loss of .05% carbon, 1% vaniadum, and addition of .5% niobium? To me and my limited metal knowledge a 1% loss in vaniadum means a 25% loss overall in wear resistance compared to S30V?

Now, I realize the performance will not be so drastic but its gotta be something you can see. Without using it its hard to say but from what I see I would expect S35VN to have better edge retention and stability (sharpness and ability to hold shape) but have less wear resistance which is a factor of material loss during cutting. That's another thing, I think wear resistance and edge retention are still getting mixed up in some cases leading to false perceptions. Wear resistance in no way represents sharpness but it seems that's the comparison trying to be made.
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Basically they didn't add another good carbide former to the alloy to sub for the loss in vanadium and are trying to run it at the same hardness as S30V and say there is not any loss in edge retention.

If the blades are hard enough so the edge doesn't roll then S35VN seems fine, but it's gotta be hard or it will roll very easy.

S30V it's not though, although in the Mules I tested it came in the same category as S30V, CATRA on the other had showed that at even 61 HRC for both S30V and S35VN that S30V holds an edge better by a pretty good amount.
 
I've seen some hard steels roll, chip, bend, tear, and deform. Deformation can happen to any metal so I don't get how that mode of failure tells the tail of the steel. Even the best HT will still allow the steel to roll if the conditions are present to cause such a failure.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I've seen some hard steels roll, chip, bend, tear, and deform. Deformation can happen to any metal so I don't get how that mode of failure tells the tail of the steel. Even the best HT will still allow the steel to roll if the conditions are present to cause such a failure.
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Many people have tried to tell me that I'm at fault for the results. That just isn't true, since I've tested 19 other knives on video in all different steels, and S35VN is the only steel that was damaged even nearly that bad.
 
Yes, but why did it roll?

As I pointed out earlier in the video posted by CTS, to me clearly shows the cutting board causing a roll in the edge thus causing the belly of the blade to tear the paper.

A roll is a reaction to a action which can be caused by many things when cutting something and is not the sole deciding factor for performance. I rolled the edge on my 0551 with ELMAX steel when it made contact with the stainless steel counter-top so is my steel bad too?
 
Knifenut, you are throwing a lot of technical terms around, which I didn't do in my test.


I can tell you this, after testing I thoroughly looked the edge over with a loupe and microscope. In addition to the edge warping, it also blunted. I don't meant in a select few spots. Literally the whole part of the edge that was doing the cutting blunted. To the point that it was butter knife dull.


Now people can tell me that's my fault, but I have video proof that it's not. 420hc stayed sharp longer, 8cr stayed sharp longer, a LOT of budget steels out performed S35VN. And not ONE of them had edge damage even similar.


The steel (at its current state) is garbage.
 
If a knife edge rolls as a result of contact with a cutting board, then there's something wrong with the knife. Rolling your knife edge from contacting the stainless steel countertop, that's user error.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
Many people have tried to tell me that I'm at fault for the results. That just isn't true, since I've tested 19 other knives on video in all different steels, and S35VN is the only steel that was damaged even nearly that bad.
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I don't place you at fault I place the cutting board at fault. Weather its believed or not a edge sharpened on a precision device like the EP, WEPS, aligner, lansky, will not hold its Sharp apex for very long and chipping or rolling is a common failure in my experience. It may be the sharpest of edges but its not the strongest.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I don't place you at fault I place the cutting board at fault. Weather its believed or not a edge sharpened on a precision device like the EP, WEPS, aligner, lansky, will not hold its Sharp apex for very long and chipping or rolling is a common failure in my experience. It may be the sharpest of edges but its not the strongest.
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18 of the 19 knives I tested were sharpened on the EP. Seems like those edges would have suffered the same fate. Most were much more acute than the two S35vn knives also.

I don't really want to argue about a steel. Believe what you want, but I would say that it is definitely not normal for a 440A equivalent to out perform S35VN. I suggest buying a knife in this steel (spyderco or CRK) and using it, with an open mind. You'll quickly understand what me and Jim are talking about. :)


But yes I agree, my free hand edges last longer (and are sometimes sharper) than my EP edges.
 
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I'm trying to keep a open mind because I would like to purchase a ZT 0550 but all this talk has me worried. 50% of the reason I like my 0551 is the steel and I'm not looking to make a big leap down in performance while making my wallet lighter.

I'm not here to argue, its not personal for me.
 
Who knows, maybe somehow kershaw/ZT got the heat treat right? I'm right there with you on that. I too have the 551, but also wanted a 550. I'm holding off right now. That's a lot of money to put down on a steel that doesn't perform. But again, ZT may have done it right.

But, when you look at the chemistry of it, it makes you wonder how much a good heat treat can really help. It is essentially S30V without the alloying elements that made S30 so great.
 
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