440B vs all takers

so does anyone have the make up of it to add to conversation so we could compare it to maybe s30v which is becoming a standard steel. maybe we can see why s30v has more edge retention and how it compares with toughness, which 440B maybe tougher steel.

When you say "make up", do you mean the steel composition?
If so, zknives is informative in that regard. Here's a composition comparison of 440B and S30V.
 
My favourite knife is a no name brand Buckmaster clone, and it has 440 stamped on one side of the blade, and "Japan" on the other.

These are the two stamps I am happiest to see on any knife, but "Randall S" is pretty good too. Al Mar and Aus-6 is right up there too.

What I LEAST want to see is S30V or CPM154cm... This is to the point it is a dealbreaker unless the knife is dagger...

Gaston
 
My favourite knife is a no name brand Buckmaster clone, and it has 440 stamped on one side of the blade, and "Japan" on the other.

These are the two stamps I am happiest to see on any knife, but "Randall S" is pretty good too. Al Mar and Aus-6 is right up there too.

What I LEAST want to see is S30V or CPM154cm... This is to the point it is a dealbreaker unless the knife is dagger...

Gaston

There's no such steel as CPM154cm. It's either CPM 154 or 154cm.

The extreme hate for S30V is hilarious. It was the hottest steel not even 10 years ago. It performs great. It's not overly difficult to sharpen. I've never had chipping issues.
 
done right 440a, b ,and c are quite good. people have gotten a bad feel from all the chinese labeled 440 knives not done right.
 
Jay Fisher uses 440c and stands by it because he feels he has mastered it. I think he knows a lick or two about blade steels. To him 440c is one of the best stainless steels. However he says that it is one of the hardest steels to get the heat treatment correct. He says that when it is done right it is one of the best stainless steels for the fixed blades. He also says 440c is extremely hard to mirror polish. Not so much the edge but the entire blade.
 
There's no such steel as CPM154cm. It's either CPM 154 or 154cm.

The extreme hate for S30V is hilarious. It was the hottest steel not even 10 years ago. It performs great. It's not overly difficult to sharpen. I've never had chipping issues.

It is referred to as CPM 154 cm in numerous places, including Steel Barons who are a retailer:

http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/cpm-154cm/

http://faq.customtacticals.com/steels/stainless_154cm.php

As for S30V, my problem with it was not that it chipped but that it rolled like there was no tomorrow: Chopping on a 3" diameter piece of Maple, with a 10.5" blade from a star maker costing around 2ks, 0.040" edge at around 17 degrees per side, I could pick a spot forward on the edge, chop once or twice, then pick a spot back on the edge, chop once on twice, and the two separate spots would produce nail shavings from my nails on one side only... That is micro-rolling with one or two chops on Maple...

That being said, I've seen badly done 440C that would roll on Maple so bad the edge would literally be pointing UPWARDS when the unrolled portions pointed down: This in a SINGLE stroke on Maple... And I've seen a Neeley 440C that chipped at over 20 degrees per side on wood, losing visible chunks off the apex at every stroke...

I've tested many, and that is why I say the best thing to see stamped on a blade is JAPAN, then Randall... Al Mar is always JAPAN anyway...

Gaston
 
It is referred to as CPM 154 cm in numerous places, including Steel Barons who are a retailer:

http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/cpm-154cm/

Gaston, taking advice from you is ridiculous. Read the link to NJ Steel Baron. It clearly distinguishes between the two alloys,

Product Description

CPM 154 is a CPM processed version of 154-CM providing a more even distrubtion of carbides, greatly enhancing the attributes of the already popular 154-CM. CPM 154 is easier to polish and grind,as well as having improved toughness and corrosion resistance.
 
One more problem, you continue to slander S30V and Bud Nealy for the same reason. You take the knives, then thin the blades to the point they can't do the job as originally designed.

You can't chop hardwood with a blade you've made into a kitchen knife!
 
It is referred to as CPM 154 cm in numerous places, including Steel Barons who are a retailer:

http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/cpm-154cm/

http://faq.customtacticals.com/steels/stainless_154cm.php

As for S30V, my problem with it was not that it chipped but that it rolled like there was no tomorrow: Chopping on a 3" diameter piece of Maple, with a 10.5" blade from a star maker costing around 2ks, 0.040" edge at around 17 degrees per side, I could pick a spot forward on the edge, chop once or twice, then pick a spot back on the edge, chop once on twice, and the two separate spots would produce nail shavings from my nails on one side only... That is micro-rolling with one or two chops on Maple...

That being said, I've seen badly done 440C that would roll on Maple so bad the edge would literally be pointing UPWARDS when the unrolled portions pointed down: This in a SINGLE stroke on Maple... And I've seen a Neeley 440C that chipped at over 20 degrees per side on wood, losing visible chunks off the apex at every stroke...

I've tested many, and that is why I say the best thing to see stamped on a blade is JAPAN, then Randall... Al Mar is always JAPAN anyway...

Gaston

You're wrong. Here it is directly from the maker:

cpm154.PNG


S30V is not designed for chopping. Use a low carbide steel instead.
 
No mystery here. 440 A is the low Carbon version of 440 (0.70% C). It is the budget version of 440 and has the least wear resistance. 440 B is the medium Carbon version of 440 (0.080% C). It has more wear resistance than 440 A. It also has better toughness than 440 C and so is better for chopping than 440 C. 440 C (1.05% C) is the best and most expensive of the 440 alloys. It has the most wear resistance and is the hardest to fabricate. It cannot be fine blanked like its lesser cousins. In its hardened state, it is more brittle than 440 A & 440 B. So it is not the best blade steel for chopping. Most knives that are stamped 440 are actually 440 A. If you spend the extra money for 440 C, you want to be sure to indicate that with your blade stamp.
 
One more problem, you continue to slander S30V and Bud Nealy for the same reason. You take the knives, then thin the blades to the point they can't do the job as originally designed.

You can't chop hardwood with a blade you've made into a kitchen knife!

Any knife should chop Maple with no problems with an edge at nearly 20 degree per side, especially on a grind that is 0.060" thick!

And it is not Bud Nealy in S30V I was referring to, but Vaughn Neeley, whose work was in 440C.

The poor performing S30V was from RJ Martin, at around 15 per side, a maker who is extremely rigorous in his heat treat procedures, so I am sure he did everything right to make it perfect, and I don't blame him in the slightest for how it behaved. Especially since at the time the steel was new and maybe the procedures for it have changed since. I can only speak from a huge 15 year old knife, but another large brand new knife in CPM 154, from another maker, behaved in the exact same way at the same angle... Large S30V or CPM 154 choppers are quite rare, which could be why the heat treat is not optimized for that use...

Gaston

P.S. And to answer another post, D-2 is a large Carbide steel, and it seems to have no real problems at even thinner angles on a 30 year old 10" Lile. It is sensitive to accidental twisting forces when unsticking, but only very marginally.
 
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It is referred to as CPM 154 cm in numerous places, including Steel Barons who are a retailer:

http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/cpm-154cm/

http://faq.customtacticals.com/steels/stainless_154cm.php

As for S30V, my problem with it was not that it chipped but that it rolled like there was no tomorrow: Chopping on a 3" diameter piece of Maple, with a 10.5" blade from a star maker costing around 2ks, 0.040" edge at around 17 degrees per side, I could pick a spot forward on the edge, chop once or twice, then pick a spot back on the edge, chop once on twice, and the two separate spots would produce nail shavings from my nails on one side only... That is micro-rolling with one or two chops on Maple...

That being said, I've seen badly done 440C that would roll on Maple so bad the edge would literally be pointing UPWARDS when the unrolled portions pointed down: This in a SINGLE stroke on Maple... And I've seen a Neeley 440C that chipped at over 20 degrees per side on wood, losing visible chunks off the apex at every stroke...

I've tested many, and that is why I say the best thing to see stamped on a blade is JAPAN, then Randall... Al Mar is always JAPAN anyway...

Gaston

440b works fine and you like it, fine... you are wrong about cpm154cm... Your opinion of S30v is yours... S30v has been throughly proved out, honestly you come off like your trolling a bit. is there any steel better than 440B in your opinion? or is 440 series the best kept secret, thats not a secret?
 
Especially since at the time the steel was new and maybe the procedures for it have changed since. I can only speak from a huge 15 year old knife, but another large brand new knife in CPM 154, from another maker, behaved in the exact same way at the same angle... Large S30V or CPM 154 choppers are quite rare, which could be why the heat treat is not optimized for that use...

Gaston
your opinion on s30v is based on one 15 year old knife... And there were problems reported with s30v in the beginning with chipping, rolls sounds like a heat treat issue. Or you hit a knot thats a problem with anecdotal evidence with no video to back up.
 
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There's no reason to use a high carbide steel for chopping. The mode of failure is not slow abrasive wear. It fails by impact including lateral stress and some torsion depending on how the blade rotates. Edge retention is not one thing. The mode of blunting must be considered when talking about edge retention.

440 series steels are fine. I doubt many could even tell good 440C from the current "premium" steels in a blind test without doing significant work.
 
There's no reason to use a high carbide steel for chopping. The mode of failure is not slow abrasive wear. It fails by impact including lateral stress and some torsion depending on how the blade rotates. Edge retention is not one thing. The mode of blunting must be considered when talking about edge retention.

Excellent and true.
440 series steels are fine. I doubt many could even tell good 440C from the current "premium" steels in a blind test without doing significant work.

I grew up with the 440 series steels used in stainless knives. I still enjoy using 440A for what it's worth. I don't have much use for 440C though. If I want the corrosion resistance and abrasive wear resistance the equally available steels like VG10, 154cm, ATS 34 and CPM 154 have a bit better wear resistance while having much better grain structures giving better edge stability and toughness. I know I can sure tell the difference using and sharpening these steels. To me, 440C has a unique feel on the stones compared to VG10 or 154cm/CPM 154 etc..

440A makes a great starter stainless in knives like the old Schrade + many of us used to have. It sharpens pretty easily and has decent enough attributes for all around use where abrasive wear resistance isn't important. Similar to the 420HC Buck still uses in that regard.

Still, if someone knowledgeable about knives such as Fanglekai and many more are satisfied with 440C it shows there is a lot of life left in that steel and we will likely see it for a while yet. I know a bunch of people who have decades of knife use that are very satisfied with 440C. I'm just not one of them but I won't argue with any that find the attributes they need in the steel.

True 440B is pretty rare though. I've seen analogs but I can't think of anyone other than Randall that uses 440B. I won't argue with Randall and their customers about a steel they know more about than I do.

joe
 
I've seen a few dive knives that were in 440b. It seems like if the steel was good 30 years ago it's still good now. Some makers can do a really good job with a certain steel. Sometimes lemons seem to get through any qc process.
 
440b really shines in wear resistance. Many dive knives are made of it because of this very reason. However with modern steels like H1 in particular and other steels containing a high percentage of nitrogen there are steels even more corrosion resistant than 440a or b. Apparently a company called Oceanmaster makes dive knives out of a proprietary titanium alloy that can be run up to 60rc.


-edit- I mean 440b really shines in CORROSION resistance.

I know that Titanium will likely never be able to be made as wear resistant as steels. I just know that it resists chipping and most other companies only run their titanium alloys around 46rc max. Now since they use a proprietary alloy their 60rc titanium knives may not have this resistance to chipping. Still they are apparently great blades.

I believe the composition of the Ti in Oceanmaster knives is not the same as Mission Knives. Even if it was Mission still runs their knives closer to 45rc to OM's 60rc.


qX9opSq.gif


Do you own or have you used any titanium alloy knives?
 
The only Ti knife I personally own is an Schwartz Tactical La Griffe. Other than that my father has an Aqualung Ti dive knife which I only have anecdotal evidence of its performance. The Schwartz La Griffe has that carbidized edge on the flat side of its chisel ground blade which creates a sort of edge retention. Apparently it is tungsten carbide.

Ti knives are pretty common these days.

Maybe you could point out where I was wrong? Mission Knives website says they run their blades at about 47rc. So yes my memory was one point off what their website quotes.

http://www.missionknives.com/index.php/products/view/69
 
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