440B vs all takers

sharp_edge said:
People use HT as an excuse to justify inferior steels and equal 440 to M390. To me it is like saying 60 cents chicken can taste as good as kobe beef if cooked properly.
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No, I think they are saying that Kobe beef can be as crappy as 60 cent chicken if the heat-treatment is poor.
 
Lapedog said:
I know that Titanium will likely never be able to be made as wear resistant as steels. I just know that it resists chipping and most other companies only run their titanium alloys around 46rc max. Now since they use a proprietary alloy their 60rc titanium knives may not have this resistance to chipping. Still they are apparently great blades.
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Any hint about who "they" is?
 
Lapedog said:
Jay Fisher uses 440c and stands by it because he feels he has mastered it. I think he knows a lick or two about blade steels. To him 440c is one of the best stainless steels. However he says that it is one of the hardest steels to get the heat treatment correct. He says that when it is done right it is one of the best stainless steels for the fixed blades. He also says 440c is extremely hard to mirror polish. Not so much the edge but the entire blade.
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So he says - regarding what he sells. Does that sound cynical? Good.
 
Lapedog said:
I've seen a few dive knives that were in 440b. It seems like if the steel was good 30 years ago it's still good now. Some makers can do a really good job with a certain steel. Sometimes lemons seem to get through any qc process.
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Punch cards were good in 1965.

Dial phones were the berries in 1960

I am sure you understand the concept of relative value. What was "good" three decades ago is relatively poor today. Unless you're Jay Fisher.
 
sharp_edge said:
People use HT as an excuse to justify inferior steels and equal 440 to M390. To me it is like saying 60 cents chicken can taste as good as kobe beef if cooked properly.
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If you burn the Kobe, the .60 cent chicken cooked properly sure can Be Better! Many of the knives made in China are NOT the steels they are labeled, then you have the HT. Last, a steel like 440c or B with a proper HT will out preform M390 or any other Super Steel of the month with a So So Ht! Know that!😉
 
sharp_edge said:
People use HT as an excuse to justify inferior steels and equal 440 to M390. To me it is like saying 60 cents chicken can taste as good as kobe beef if cooked properly.
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Chemical composition, heat treatment, and blade geometry are all vital. If anyone of them is less than optimal your performance will suffer. The combination of the three best for a chopper probably won't be the most desirable choices for a kitchen slicer, or skinner, or pocket knife or so on.
 
Aias said:
I read that when selecting their 440b, that Randall Made Knives goes for 440b with a higher amount of (I think) carbon--if so, how does that work? Does it make it closer to 440c? Sorry I can't search for the original source right now. I've had a pretty good experience with Randall stainless. Also, does forging make a difference? I've read much arguing both sides... not too sure what to think.
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Don't know about RMK but yes, adding carbon to B would push it towards C, the other elements in the family are similar. (See the graph ^^)

I don't have experience with forging but have read that cold forging will cause local hardening but hot forging, common to blade making, does not.
 
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I am still not persuaded unless it is proven that kobe beef is more difficult to cook well than 60 cents chicken.
 
sharp_edge said:
I am still not persuaded unless it is proven that kobe beef is more difficult to cook well than 60 cents chicken.
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Its my Understanding that ANY Beef you buy in the USA marked Kobe is a Fraud and its not exported from Japan, so We have real Free Range, .60 Chicken cooked to perfection and a imposter beef without proper HT!;)
 
OK thx - I see yuor point on beef vs chicken. I was just curious whether super steel like M390 is more difficult to heat treat than 440B. What is your experience as a knifemaker with heat treating them?
 
M390 isn't much more difficult to HT compare to 440B. Its just require higher temperature and longer soaking time.

Both steel need high precision temperature control with surface protection for any possibly decarb for "properly" heat treating.

With bad heat treatment both steel are just garbage and this apply to most stainless or high alloy steel.

The steel that are more forgiving to heat treatment are mostly plain carbon or very low alloy steel.

The problem about 440 series is it got bad reps due to too many junk/fraud knife with bad heat treatment or fault steel listing that they are using it.
 
sharp_edge said:
OK thx - I see yuor point on beef vs chicken. I was just curious whether super steel like M390 is more difficult to heat treat than 440B. What is your experience as a knifemaker with heat treating them?
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I have sent all of blades to PAUL Bos HT for the past 20 plus and the 440 ABC's are the grand daddy of all of your current Air Hardening Super Duper Stainless steels, it's would be a similar process and there's no magic!
 
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