440c comparisons (where does it stand?)

Boris74 said:
This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.
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Despite the trolling, had to add this. That statement above is such a ridiculous oversimplification of the metallurgy and composition of cutlery steels. That's like saying that the car with the most horsepower is the fastest. Too many other factors involved, even in "stock cars."
 
I know! It's so sad it has become funny.

fsatsil said:
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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fsatsil said:
The nitrogen steels like Vanax35/75 and H1 have already proven that carbon content is not the only element that effects edge retention.
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Sam Wilson said:
Despite the trolling, had to add this. That statement above is such a ridiculous oversimplification of the metallurgy and composition of cutlery steels. That's like saying that the car with the most horsepower is the fastest. Too many other factors involved, even in "stock cars."
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Boris, Boris, Boris, For the last time!
Sam,fsatsil,myself and many others have all tried to educate you that there are many different factors in edge retention. Carbon content, only being the first. Nitrogen, Chromium, Vanadium and others can be equally important depending on what you want the steel to do and it what environment.

Sam's analogy should be simple enough for even you?

Well Boys,
You can lead a horse to water, But… At this rate folks Boris won't last much longer around here.
 
Boris74 said:
I see a whole lot of this around here. Not one person interested in knives will take that statement on blind faith. Everyone, when they disagree with someone, let alone large manufacturers of knives around
this place simply say "you are wrong". Then no one says how or why. :confused:

News flash, you aren't right either. Unless you can prove it you are dead wrong. Once again, I'm not saying it. The people who make knives say it. If carbon is not the only element added for edge retention, as the big guys say then tell us what is. That's too easy, especially since you hint at knowing, after all you said the big manufacturers are wrong.

To keep it in context here is your whole quote



So then prove it, but you better be able to back it up. Until then I trust the big manufacturers over what someone online says. That right there is very easy to understand.

My weekend started tonight spending a couple hours fishing with my youngest son. Good times.
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You looked at a basic chart and made assumptions and drew conclusions. Much of what you will find on a production knife website is information for the beginner or the people who want basic groundwork of information. Its a basic guide for those who wish to dip a toe. You are basically taking an encyclopedia and saying no other information exists beyond that because it wasnt in the set you read. Your chart also doesnt have cobalt listed as an element. But Im sure you will say cobalt isnt used in steel because its not on the chart EVERYONE uses.

When you look at that chart you are looking at carbon as the only thing that increases edge retention. That only means that carbon is the only thing you can add to steel on its own and have a direct effect on edge retention. But the chart does not elude to in the slightest that a combination of other elements in certain amounts wont effect edge retention in their own way. The chart doesnt even take into account the other processes that go into the blade aside from the raw steel such as heat treatment, tempering, cryogenic treatments etc. If you think none of those effect edge retention I think you would be mistaken. But how do you say that with a basic chart? you dont. but If I look at a color wheel that only shows primary colors and the colors they make when you mix them that doesnt mean other shades dont exist. It just means you may have the most basic of graphs that doesnt paint the whole picture.
 
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At this point i don't think it would be worth it to even try to help him understand. If someone is so adamant that an over simplified chart is completely correct and they use it to "prove" their point, i don't think it's worth anyone's time.
 
I think you're a bit confused Boris. "edge holding" & "abrasion resistance" are basically the same. There are many elements that increase edge holding/abrasion resistance. Being an actual knifemaker and having worked with many different steels with very high abrasion resistance/edge holding, I can promise you that Carbon percentage is NOT the only thing that determines how long a knife will hold an edge. Just one example I can think of. I think anyone would agree that CPM 3V has equal or better edge holding than D2 and 3V only has 0.80% Carbon compared to D2 having 1.55%.
Here is a link to show that I know a tiny bit about edge holding. Scroll down to the bottom column of the first post. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope
 
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darrin sanders said:
I think you're a bit confused Boris. "edge holding" & "abrasion resistance" are basically the same. There are many elements that increase edge holding/abrasion resistance. Being an actual knifemaker and having worked with many different steels with very high abrasion resistance/edge holding, I can promise you that Carbon percentage is NOT the only thing that determines how long a knife will hold an edge. Just one example I can think of. I think anyone would agree that CPM 3V has equal or better edge holding than D2 and 3V only has 0.80% Carbon compared to D2 having 1.55%.
Here is a link to show that I know a tiny bit about edge holding. Scroll down to the bottom column of the first post. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope
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Hello Darrin,
Thanks for chiming in and its good to see you here buddy.. Several here have tried to explain this to our pal Boris. Maybe you can get through?
 
No problem Laurence. Another thing to keep in mind is that charts & graphs will only give a "ballpark" idea. There are far too many variables between alloys, how they're heat treated, & how they're ground to be able to get an "absolute" idea of performance.
 
darrin sanders said:
No problem Laurence. Another thing to keep in mind is that charts & graphs will only give a "ballpark" idea. There are far too many variables between alloys, how they're heat treated, & how they're ground to be able to get an "absolute" idea of performance.
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Not to mention that when it comes to actual content, on many steel charts from the steel makers, they give a nominal amount.
So unless we want to pay to have it analyzed? We just have to take their word for it.

Like here on Niagara's chart http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=26
 
Cobalt said:
.

There are to many factors in knife steel usage to positively place a steel in a category. If we are talking just edge holding, well that is pretty well discussed. But edge holding doesn't take into account edge chipping or denting, how does an edge take damage. I have purchased and abused 440C blades made by custom makers on this forum that would outperform S30V any day of the week and twice on Sunday. A chart tells me that S30V should hold an edge better. But it did not. So charts and data is a good guide, but when I buy a knife, I buy the maker, not so much the steel. Just my 2 cents
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440C is widely made, and from my experiences it has a wide variety of character from maker to maker: One of the variables is the ease of polishing and the tendency to to make a wire edge (AUS-6 and 8 polish noticeably better, with seemingly much finer grain)... Many times it seemed to me 440A B or C were all wire-edge intensive (on a 440C Boker for instance), and usually it is hard to to remove that wire edge as it often flip-flops... My Vaugh Neeley SA9 sharpens completely differently than any other 440C I ever owned... It tends not to create wire edges, and when it does make them, they come off real easy by just sharpening the other way... The grain finish also seems smoother, like AUS-6 and AUS-8, which have a component that promotes grain smoothness and finish quality over 440C... The bad reputation of 440 steels probably has little to do with the steel itself...

As far as 440C losing its edge, it seems to me that if people feel a steel is not as good as the other, then they will sharpen it more often, and say, "see, I need to sharpen it more"... Evaluating edge finish quality, edge apex microscopic damage, and then the soundness of a re-applied edge... I mean... This is all stuff for high magnification and very rigorous testing procedures... I keep thinking that if a true blind test was done by mailing hundreds of properly hardened Exacto blades, in different steels, to all bladeforums members, the result of their "testing" woud be utterly devastating to the notion that edge-holding is an easy thing to determine...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
As far as 440C losing its edge, it seems to me that if people feel a steel is not as good as the other, then they will sharpen it more often, and say, "see, I need to sharpen it more"...
Gaston
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My 440C dedicated box opening knife was sharpened when it no longer opened boxes and packages as easily.
That occurred sooner than the S30V knife I had been using as my dedicated box opening knife before I got the one in 440C...

Not the most scientific test, but it isn't meant to be.
In fact, it isn't a test at all...it's just one guy using his knives and sharpening them when they don't cut stuff so well anymore. :)
 
Gaston444 said:
440C is widely made, and from my experiences it has a wide variety of character from maker to maker: One of the variables is the ease of polishing and the tendency to to make a wire edge (AUS-6 and 8 polish noticeably better, with seemingly much finer grain)... Many times it seemed to me 440A B or C were all wire-edge intensive (on a 440C Boker for instance), and usually it is hard to to remove that wire edge as it often flip-flops... My Vaugh Neeley SA9 sharpens completely differently than any other 440C I ever owned... It tends not to create wire edges, and when it does make them, they come off real easy by just sharpening the other way... The grain finish also seems smoother, like AUS-6 and AUS-8, which have a component that promotes grain smoothness and finish quality over 440C... The bad reputation of 440 steels probably has little to do with the steel itself...

As far as 440C losing its edge, it seems to me that if people feel a steel is not as good as the other, then they will sharpen it more often, and say, "see, I need to sharpen it more"... Evaluating edge finish quality, edge apex microscopic damage, and then the soundness of a re-applied edge... I mean... This is all stuff for high magnification and very rigorous testing procedures... I keep thinking that if a true blind test was done by mailing hundreds of properly hardened Exacto blades, in different steels, to all bladeforums members, the result of their "testing" woud be utterly devastating to the notion that edge-holding is an easy thing to determine...

Gaston
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Gaston,
I've used 440C stainless treated to a RC of 60 By Paul Bos for almost 20 years now and after the Heat Treatment. The geometry of the blade is the second factor that will determine edge holding and then there is the task at hand.

One of the things I like about 440C for my Culinary knives is the large hard carbides that form really keep the knives cutting for quite a while with just a few swipes with a smooth or diamond butchers steel to realign that edge.

I've cut rope and yards of cardboard etc. with my knives. At the end of the day, when it comes to culinary knives, most people look to see how well their knife will slice tomatoes.:)
 
stabman said:
My 440C dedicated box opening knife was sharpened when it no longer opened boxes and packages as easily.
That occurred sooner than the S30V knife I had been using as my dedicated box opening knife before I got the one in 440C...

Not the most scientific test, but it isn't meant to be.
In fact, it isn't a test at all...it's just one guy using his knives and sharpening them when they don't cut stuff so well anymore. :)
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Wait, you used your knife and then based your opinion of the steel off of said use? That's just crazy. I'll take the charts and mythical articles any day.....
 
Laurence (Rhinoknives) makes a good point about the culinary aspect. I'm not going to argue that 440C is the greatest steel as there are definitely steels out there that offer advantages, but I do believe it works very well for a number of applications. I have had customers go quite literally over a year on the edge of their chef knife that I made them, out of 440C @60 HRC and still have it working quite well. I'm not saying its a "miracle" or anything like that, just that 440C does a really nice job at that hardness in that application. It also resists staining better than most other high end steels around.

In my experience, outside of Bladeforums, the average person isn't nearly as concerned with the fancy name of the steel as they are two things: Does it resist corrosion and will it hold an edge? 440C does both of those quite well, at a reasonable price.
 
Boris, either your the funniest guy on Blade Forums or have your ego invested in ignorance.
We all have to have a slice of humbleberry pie at the big kids table.
I wish you well sir



Anyhow, I was reading about Stuart Ackermans knife in 440C with some special casting process.
It sounds very gimmickly, with the whole "dentritic crystal structures" also it never caught on so it must be hype.

I was hoping someone with more knowledge could explain in laymans terms.

Thanks
 
DeadboxHero said:
Boris, either your the funniest guy on Blade Forums or have your ego invested in ignorance.
We all have to have a slice of humbleberry pie at the big kids table.
I wish you well sir



Anyhow, I was reading about Stuart Ackermans knife in 440C with some special casting process.
It sounds very gimmickly, with the whole "dentritic crystal structures" also it never caught on so it must be hype.

I was hoping someone with more knowledge could explain in laymans terms.

Thanks
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http://boyeknives.com
No, No, No,
Dententric Steel is not hype.

David Boye was the first or one of the first to utilize this process for his knives. I had one of his folders years ago and used it extensively.I bought because of the cast steel and as a maker I wanted to see how it held up?

Excellent edge retention and Super corrosion resistance. The process is expensive & some folks think small fine grain structure is better, Like your CPM Steels and David thinks having huge big Carbide structures makes a better cutting knife.

For a rigger's knife, where you are cutting line & rope the dentritic crystal structures do work like mini serrations and cut extremely well!
 
I have three Boye dendritic 440C knives. They keep cutting even when they no longer have a perfect edge. It is not hype.
 
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