440c comparisons (where does it stand?)

[Rhinoknives1]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.

Your arrogance in posting is only exceeded by your lack of knowledge on this subject.
No, Every single knife company/maker doesn't say that. The one with the most carbon may not have the longest lasting edge.
You might want to read up on knife steel metallurgy and make and test a few knives before you decide to make such silly statements.

Carbon is important to get hardness, but only one element in the mix, others can be just as important, depending on what you want the steel to do.

I know, what should I except from a Super Steel lover of 1095?:yawn:

 

[Thomas Linton]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.

That accounts for abrasion only. In the world of knife use, edges can be lost to micro-chipping as well as abrasion. So it is more complicated than your statement suggests.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

^ Thomas, That's where the Chromium and other elements come into play making 440C Abrasive & Wear resistant.

 

[Boris74]

Your arrogance in posting is only exceeded by your lack of knowledge on this subject.
No, Every single knife company/maker doesn't say that. The one with the most carbon may not have the longest lasting edge.
You might want to read up on knife steel metallurgy and make and test a few knives before you decide to make such silly statements.

Carbon is important to get hardness, but only one element in the mix, others can be just as important, depending on what you want the steel to do.

I know, what should I except from a Super Steel lover of 1095?:yawn:

The arrogance is yours. I am just showing you guys that the guys who pay people who actually know what does what to blade steel say.

How about you take it up with these arrogant people and let them know they are wrong.

https://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steel.php

I am more apt to believe people who make knives than people on the Internet. Just how things work.

I don't know what's wrong with you guys, but you need to take your issues up with the people actually making the claims and how they came about them.

As always, have a nice evening sir, I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding on a few members part here. I am not saying anything. I'm just providing the info the people who make them the information they provide.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.

The arrogance is yours. I am just showing you guys that the guys who pay people who actually know what does what to blade steel say.

How about you take it up with these arrogant people and let them know they are wrong.

https://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steel.php

I am more apt to believe people who make knives than people on the Internet. Just how things work.

I don't know what's wrong with you guys, but you need to take your issues up with the people actually making the claims and how they came about them.

As always, have a nice evening sir, I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding on a few members part here. I am not saying anything. I'm just providing the info the people who make them the information they provide.

Don't push this off on Spyderco or anyone else. Nowhere on their site does it say that.
You made the statement and you are not correct. Have a nice weekend.

 

[Boris74]

you are not correct.

I see a whole lot of this around here. Not one person interested in knives will take that statement on blind faith. Everyone, when they disagree with someone, let alone large manufacturers of knives around
this place simply say "you are wrong". Then no one says how or why.

News flash, you aren't right either. Unless you can prove it you are dead wrong. Once again, I'm not saying it. The people who make knives say it. If carbon is not the only element added for edge retention, as the big guys say then tell us what is. That's too easy, especially since you hint at knowing, after all you said the big manufacturers are wrong.

To keep it in context here is your whole quote

Don't push this off on Spyderco or anyone else. Nowhere on their site does it say that.
You made the statement and you are not correct. Have a nice weekend.

So then prove it, but you better be able to back it up. Until then I trust the big manufacturers over what someone online says. That right there is very easy to understand.

My weekend started tonight spending a couple hours fishing with my youngest son. Good times.

 

[stabman]

Steel Element Information

Carbon (C)
• Increases edge retention and raises tensile strength.
• Increases hardness and improves resistance to wear and abrasion.

Chromium (Cr)
• Increases hardness, tensile strength, and toughness.
• Provides resistance to wear and corrosion.

Cobalt (Co)
• Increases strength and hardness, and permits quenching in higher temperatures.
• Intensifies the individual effects of other elements in more complex steels.

Copper (Cu)
• Increases corrosion resistance.

Manganese (Mn)
• Increases hardenability, wear resistance, and tensile strength.
• Deoxidizes and degasifies to remove oxygen from molten metal.
• In larger quantities, increases hardness and brittleness.

Molybdenum (Mo)
• Increases strength, hardness, hardenability, and toughness.
• Improves machinability and resistance to corrosion.

Nickel (Ni)
• Adds strength and toughness.


Niobium (Nb)
• aka columbium. Improves strength and toughness.
• Provides corrosion resistance.
• Improves grain refinement and precipitation hardening

Nitrogen (N)
• Used in place of carbon for the steel matrix. The Nitrogen atom will function in a similar manner to the carbon atom but offers unusual advantages in corrosion resistance.

Phosphorus (P)
• Improves strength, machinability, and hardness.
• Creates brittleness in high concentrations.

Silicon (Si)
• Increases strength.
• Deoxidizes and degasifies to remove oxygen from molten metal.

Sulfur (S)
• Improves machinability when added in minute quantities.

Tungsten (W)
• Adds strength, toughness, and improves hardenability.

Vanadium (V)
• Increases strength, wear resistance, and increases toughness.

http://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steel.php

 

[Rhinoknives1]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.

I see a whole lot of this around here. Not one person interested in knives will take that statement on blind faith. Everyone, when they disagree with someone, let alone large manufacturers of knives around
this place simply say "you are wrong". Then no one says how or why.

News flash, you aren't right either. Unless you can prove it you are dead wrong. Once again, I'm not saying it. The people who make knives say it. If carbon is not the only element added for edge retention, as the big guys say then tell us what is. That's too easy, especially since you hint at knowing, after all you said the big manufacturers are wrong.

To keep it in context here is your whole quote



So then prove it, but you better be able to back it up. Until then I trust the big manufacturers over what someone online says. That right there is very easy to understand.

My weekend started tonight spending a couple hours fishing with my youngest son. Good times.

Wonderful, your son didn't make these comments. You did.

Like the issue at hand, you have it incorrect. The way an intellectual argument works is that you made the statement so you need to prove it.

Quote Originally Posted by Boris74 . Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer. I'm not saying it. Every single company that makes knives says it.

Show us where any knife maker or knife company has this written out? Spyderco's didn't?

 

[Boris74]

Wonderful, your son didn't make these comments. You did.

Like the issue at hand, you have it incorrect. The way an intellectual argument works is that you made the statement so you need to prove it.



Show us where any knife maker or knife company has this written out? Spyderco's didn't?

First column, top element is carbon. Third column is increases edge retention. The only element with an X that intersects the edge retention column is carbon.

You, like others pretend you have the answer (by simply saying The guys who makes knives are wrong lol). You even go as far as saying every knife manufacturer is wrong.

Stop. Stop pretending you have the answer. YOU say carbon is not the only edge retaining element added to a blade, not me. Now back it up, or tell every single knife manufacturer they are wrong. I'm not the one saying it.

You talk big game, now stand behind it. What is it that's added to blade steel that increases edge retention? A you are not correct is not the right answer. Step up or step down.

 

[Lonewolf01]

First column, top element is carbon. Third column is increases edge retention. The only element with an X that intersects the edge retention column is carbon.

You, like others pretend you have the answer (by simply saying The guys who makes knives are wrong lol). You even go as far as saying every knife manufacturer is wrong.

Stop. Stop pretending you have the answer. YOU say carbon is not the only edge retaining element added to a blade, not me. Now back it up, or tell every single knife manufacturer they are wrong. I'm not the one saying it.

You talk big game, now stand behind it. What is it that's added to blade steel that increases edge retention? A you are not correct is not the right answer. Step up or step down.

Here you go, taken from the exact link that you posted.

Nitrogen (N)
• Used in place of carbon for the steel matrix. The Nitrogen atom will function in a similar manner to the carbon atom but offers unusual advantages in corrosion resistance.

And here's something that Mr. Joe Talmadge wrote in the Steel FAQ

Edge holding: The ability of a blade to hold an edge. Many people
make the mistake of thinking wear resistance and edge holding are the
same thing. Most assuredly, it is not; or rather, it usually is not.
Edge holding is job-specific. That is, edge holding is a function of
wear resistance, strength, and toughness. But different jobs require
different properties for edge holding. For example, cutting through
cardboard (which often has hard embedded impurities), toughness
becomes extremely important, because micro-chipping is often the
reason for edge degradation. Whittling very hard wood, strength
becomes very important for edge-holding, because the primary reason
for edge degradation is edge rolling and impaction. Wear resistance
becomes more important for edge holding when very abrasive materials,
such as carpet, are being cut. And for many jobs, where corrosion-
inducing materials are contacted (such as food prep), corrosion can
affect the edge quickly, so corrosion resistance has a role to play
as well.

Also, why don't you test some Vanax 75 against 1095 and see which has the highest edge retention.

 

[fsatsil]

I'll repeat my question since it was completely ignored. If carbon is all that matters for edge holding then how do you you explain nitrogen steels such as Vanax35, Vanax75, and even H1? Even if we exclude the nitrogen steels how do you explain a steel like cpm3v compared to 1095?

 

[Cobalt]

I'll repeat my question since it was completely ignored. If carbon is all that matters for edge holding then how do you you explain nitrogen steels such as Vanax35, Vanax75, and even H1? Even if we exclude the nitrogen steels how do you explain a steel like cpm3v compared to 1095?

That's because it is not. Carbon is just one variable. Wear resistance factors involve other alloying elements as well as the HT.

Not to be a stick in the mud, but I am not understanding the original question. OP wants to know where does 440C stand and then goes on to attempt to give a lecture? I don't get it.

There are to many factors in knife steel usage to positively place a steel in a category. If we are talking just edge holding, well that is pretty well discussed. But edge holding doesn't take into account edge chipping or denting, how does an edge take damage. I have purchased and abused 440C blades made by custom makers on this forum that would outperform S30V any day of the week and twice on Sunday. A chart tells me that S30V should hold an edge better. But it did not. So charts and data is a good guide, but when I buy a knife, I buy the maker, not so much the steel. Just my 2 cents

 

[strategy9]

It was more of a rhetorical question. I wasn't asking in as much as I was attempting to show that from a metallurgic view at least, that it still compares very well alongside the more common (newer) varients used in many production knives today, and should still be considered among the premium NON-super steels. While many of the newer varients add the harder vanadium carbides to the matrix, and nickle (sandvik uses nitrogen and it's been impressive) 440(c) still has a higher carbon content and more (softer) chromium carbides; not that one is hands down better then another, just that 440 was the original that a lot of the newer stuff was based off of, and it still deserves to be in the conversation;

It isn't a secret to the knife makers, knife nuts, and guys and gals already in the know, but among the novice crowd and beginners, all the numbers and letters can start to be confusing as to what's what, i know they were for me when i first got involved, and with 440 steels being a steel of yesteryear, it sometimes seems it's become lost in translation among a newer generation. Making a metallurgic comparison using 440 as the base to compare others too (being as it is the original) to show how it compares at least from a composition standpoint, I thought might help someone elses future Google search in a way that I wished was available to me when I first started google searching steel compositions a few years back in an attempt to better understand what I was buying. There was plenty of information, but most of it more confusing then this, (I thought)...

I did also point out that manufacture is key, and will play a huge roll in any knife steel, and from a reputable source is always better then from a questionable one whatever it's made from.

 

[skyhorse]

^ Thomas, That's where the Chromium and other elements come into play making 440C Abrasive & Wear resistant.

Bingo :thumbup:

 

[Cobalt]

440C has always been one of my favorites and will always be. As for newbies learning, there are plenty of sources for them to learn from that have been around since near the beginning of the internet. Joe Talmadge, bladehq and zknives are three resources that explain most of the steels quite well.

 

[fsatsil]

That's because it is not. Carbon is just one variable. Wear resistance factors involve other alloying elements as well as the HT

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make. It's one of those myths that just won't die.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer.


Well I hate to see a grown man cry, :sorrow:

So I will let you in on the big secret.:cheerful: So come to papa ! but you have to promise to be nice to others and stop being such an arrogant cuss to others about how much you know.

Many others have contributed with the proper info but if you really want to learn more? Go to the next link and READ all of it. http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelelements.shtml

So once again, Carbon is important but, Carbide formation can be, Harden-ability, Wear resistance and others all can contribute to edge retention.

And last? YES! Last I say! If it isn't heat treated correctly for that given mix it doesn't matter what elements are in the mix, Carbon or otherwise!

 

[Boris74]

This chart. Two different steels, at the same hardness, with the same geometry, the one with the most carbon will retain its edge longer.


Well I hate to see a grown man cry, :sorrow:

So I will let you in on the big secret.:cheerful: So come to papa ! but you have to promise to be nice to others and stop being such an arrogant cuss to others about how much you know.

Many others have contributed with the proper info but if you really want to learn more? Go to the next link and READ all of it. http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelelements.shtml

So once again, Carbon is important but, Carbide formation can be, Harden-ability, Wear resistance and others all can contribute to edge retention.

And last? YES! Last I say! If it isn't heat treated correctly for that given mix it doesn't matter what elements are in the mix, Carbon or otherwise!

Learn more? Lol. Your link says what all the others do. Only one of the elements listed in that link say it increases edge retention.

You agree with me, your supporting evidence that I am wrong agrees with me, but you tell the big knife makers They are wrong over and over without proving they are. Sorry but I still believe them over what someone says on the Internet.

 

[fsatsil]

 

[fsatsil]

The nitrogen steels like Vanax35/75 and H1 have already proven that carbon content is not the only element that effects edge retention.