440c Problem child or just misunderstood

...for arguement sake, lets take strength, and toughness into consideration of what you would consider the top 5 stainless steels. i know most steels will hold an edge well enough to be serviceable, however what if you were planning to design a blad for hard use. By hard use, I mean chopping, prying, batonning and the like... then what type of steel would you choose over steels such as 440c for instance. I've used a lot of blades, in a lot of knives in a lot of areas where they are abused BIG-TIME! and if I wanted the knife to be survivable... comparing apples to apples (meaning the heat treat was proper and the edge geometry was the same) which stainless would be the best choice???
 
Funny - been looking into this

3V, 9V and Vanadis 4E come up big, and L6

Toughness and malleability seem to be close partners - so toughness and hardness is tough to find

For affordability, in the end it might be what we have always known - slightly soft (Rc 56-8) carbon steel is the tough stuff :D:D:D
 
440C is a GREAT steel. Funny that some people think lowly of it... that just means they've never tried it, I guess.

Not true every time my friend- I get the distaste in my mouth from 440C BECAUSE of my use. 440C has had the worst variances in HT that I have ever come across, in multiple blades, that I grew so tired of sharpening that I disliked the steel. Not the fault of the steel, but it is a reason that I have not cared for it. Even though I have made my own knives out of it that have worked very well in kitchens by non knife people, I will very rarely buy a knife with it (hypocritical I know, but feelings don't need logic).

Why settle for 440C today, when better performer alloy are readily available. On its own 440C might've been top notch 20-30 years ago, but not anymore.

As a hobby maker, I settled for some 440C because it was 1/2 price for the sheet size that I have, as well as better for aquatic based knives than the other steels I had available. Now it is my go to 1/8" sheet material unless the customer wants O1 (I work almost primarily in 3/32").

Here is a principle that I had a hard time getting through to my father in law this weekend: Not everybody wants the "best", most expensive or exotic. Why settle for a $300K house when you can have a $400K house? Because the features of the house aren't what I want. Many people like what they are comfortable with, and have experience with. If a guy has hunted for 30 years with his 440C knife, it cuts up his prey without needing sharpening, and he is comfortable with its upkeep- why should he change?

Try and tell some long time users that "the steel is better because you don't have to sharpen it as often, but you should buy a new sharpening stone, and it will take you longer to sharpen it once you do. Oh, plus the wire edge might be a bit harder to take off, but stropping will solve it." In my more brash youth I did these things and received the look I'm sure most of you can recognize. Just because a couple of factors are seen as better doesn't mean that they are to everybody.

In real use the end user might not see the difference that the "better" item gives, or they might not care. Example- You won't have to sharpen the knife for 5 deer. To some that might be a good thing. What if the person only gets a deer or 2 per year. Yay- you won't have to sharpen your knife for years! But what if the person has a ritual that they sharpen their knife in camp by the fire every night as a way to wind down? Then the edge holding ability might not be as great of a deal to them, and greater edge holding is a detriment to their set activities.

What if the buyer isn't a knife person but wants to get started on understanding our culture? I wouldn't tell them to try a Rc64 ZDP blade first, they would not be ready for it. A mid range 440C knife may give them better understanding as it should be easier to sharpen, takes care of itself (stainless), and probably won't be a great loss if they try something and mess up the knife a bit. Kind of like cheese, not everybody is ready for the good stuff right away, it takes some learning time (similar to how 1080 is usually recommended for new bladesmiths to practice with).

In the end I have learned that to me the knife as a whole is worth more than the steel it is made from. As a personal choice if identical knives were for sale with the 440C version being cheaper than say a S30V version, I would probably choose the 440C as I am already familiar with both steels, and know that I will be able to use both in a very similar manner as provided from an accomplished maker.


But it still isn't my favourite steel.
 
that's partly what I've been looking into as well... how much "better" are some of the steels everyone raves about overall in comparison to good ole' 440c? most of the hard use steels people go to are not stainless, they are high carbon, like the 3V, M4, 5160 and the like. Everyone seems to shy away from saying difinitevely (or at least it seems to me thus far) that there is a "better" stainless for a knife you are going to use real time and maybe be a little "abusive" in the process... if anyone has one, I'd love to hear it and why you think so.
 
Toughness and malleability seem to be close partners - so toughness and hardness is tough to find

Note, however, that edge retention is largely a function of wear resistance rather than hardness. Increasing hardness CAN increase wear resistance, but this is only one of a few ways to achieve that effect. Steel capable of forming carbides can often be run a little on the tougher side while retaining good wear resistance.

That being said, I'm not a metallurgist. The above is based on my personal experience and readings so take it as you will. ;)
 
No it will not, 100% of the time(or uses) it is behind more modern, better performing alloys and the price difference is not that big actually. I guess it depends what do you mean under "use". If you refer to an ability to make a cut, then the same applies to 420, bronze, copper, flintstone and teeth too. No reason to spend money on 440C when the rest is available even cheaper.
Otherwise, in terms of efficiency(ability to hold thin edge) and edge holding it isn't gonna hold up.

Really? The runaway most common stainless steel in the world is DIN 1.4116, as it's used in Swiss Army Knives (both Victorinox and Wenger). It's also used by Cold Steel and CRKT.
It don't hold an edge nearly as well as VG-10, or 154CM, or INFI, or M4, or SG2, or ZDP-189, or D2 or whatever other steel you can name, but knives made with it outsell knives made with any of those steels comfortably. I would say they do it by an order of magnitude as well.

It's tough, it's easy to sharpen and it resists corrosion. Edge holding isn't the end-all be-all, and for the vast, vast majority of people is only one of many important features, and is often behind sharpenability especially for outdoors use knives. Those are the exact features that 440C has, and one of the reasons I like using it.
 
...for arguement sake, lets take strength, and toughness into consideration of what you would consider the top 5 stainless steels. i know most steels will hold an edge well enough to be serviceable, however what if you were planning to design a blad for hard use. By hard use, I mean chopping, prying, batonning and the like... then what type of steel would you choose over steels such as 440c for instance. I've used a lot of blades, in a lot of knives in a lot of areas where they are abused BIG-TIME! and if I wanted the knife to be survivable... comparing apples to apples (meaning the heat treat was proper and the edge geometry was the same) which stainless would be the best choice???

I think most people realize hardness and toughness are in general inversely correlated. According to Verhoeven smaller carbides and grain mean tough blade, and it is how you get toughness outside of just tempering softer. Hence CPM steels are better than conventional stainless, small carbide steels like plain carbon and stainless razor steel are supposed to be better. The addition of various elements may increase or decrease toughness, so you see that some stainlesse and cpms are tough than others some carbon spring/saw steels again tougher than others etc.
 
440C is mfg. clean, grinds easy, is a good stainless, polishes nice and holds a great edge w/ a good cryo. soak. Many of the high V steels have gone to a lower rc in response to their chipping problem for toughness. Once, this is done a well heat treated 440C can offer edge retention right with S30V when cooked to 59rc. At this scenario one has to wonder why pay the higher price for the other? But as another
forumite posted, heat treat seems to vary among makers using 440C. It still has all the good qualities of the more trendy steels of today. ie. toughness, stainless, ect. So, what has happened is its fallen out of
vogue. The great cutlery steel of the 60s, 70s and 80s has fallen but still belongs in the group of a great knife steel. It will raise its head from time to time and not go away as its such a household name among makers. When steel mfg. tweek it some and bring it out as a hybred ( 440XH, 40CTS, ect.) by adding vanadium or powdered metalurgy to the mix. This fixes some maladies about it and results in a excellant knife steel. But the foundation was still present. DM
 
Here is a principle that I had a hard time getting through to my father in law this weekend: Not everybody wants the "best", most expensive or exotic.
Which is what I said, 440C is no longer the best... What everybody wants or not, is not an indicator of steel's performance.

Why settle for a $300K house when you can have a $400K house? Because the features of the house aren't what I want. Many people like what they are comfortable with, and have experience with. If a guy has hunted for 30 years with his 440C knife, it cuts up his prey without needing sharpening, and he is comfortable with its upkeep- why should he change?
Dunno, because he might've gotten bored with the same knife for 30 years :) Or because knife used for 30 years won't really be much of a knife.

In real use the end user might not see the difference that the "better" item gives, or they might not care. Example- You won't have to sharpen the knife for 5 deer. To some that might be a good thing. What if the person only gets a deer or 2 per year. Yay- you won't have to sharpen your knife for years! But what if the person has a ritual that they sharpen their knife in camp by the fire every night as a way to wind down? Then the edge holding ability might not be as great of a deal to them, and greater edge holding is a detriment to their set activities.
Steel has more or less measurable properties, wear resistance, toughness, hardness, grain size etc. If an X alloy is tougher/harder/smaller grained, etc than 440C, that's just how things are, it's not gonna change because of what majority chooses. I dunno why the same person can't sharpen better steel, even if it doesn't need sharpening, and it's about ritual, if you do it right, you won't break anything.

Anyway, the way I see it, a knife is a cutting tool primarily. As such, I want better cutting performance and better edge holding. I can and do sharpen my knives to get maximum performance for my use. There is no magic that will make properly treated 440C perform on par with ZDp-189 in the kitchen, especially when I thin down the edge to 10 per side. Or match M390 for cardboard... I can get much better performance from newer alloys and that's pretty much all I want from them. just because 440C knife can make the cut, it is not enough. 420 will do too, or a piece of glass :) When you are cutting for longer periods of times, thin edge that can stay sharp throughout the session is less tiring because you need to use less force, faster, more controlled and safer. As you can see I have bunch of reasons to go with better alloys, none of them is because it's approved by majority... if I didn't sharpen, or maintain/use my knives perhaps I wouldn't care either.
 
Not the fault of the steel, but it is a reason that I have not cared for it.
Well, there you go. Bad heat treating does not indicate that a steel is less capable than any other. Sorry you've had a few lemons.

Also... Another benefit of 440C, in my experience, is its toughness. I have never chipped a (well heat treated) 440C blade, while I have chipped numerous blades made of the newer powder steels/SXXV's/etc.
 
I have some knives in 440C
I have some with S30V, D2, M390 et. al.

Yes, I can tell the difference in performance between 440C and the uber stahls. But, at the end of the day, for working around the yard, for hunting, and just general carry, 440C will last through whatever work I throw at it. It works well enough that, if I like the design, the fact that it is executed in 440C is perfectly satisfactory to me.
 
440C is not very tough or wear resistant. Most people don't need their knife to be, as the 4116 example illustrates. 440C does not have the properties of the new alloys. Almost all of these steels were developed for applications where their properties are much more important than when used in a knife. There is a reason why they were developed even though the world already had 440C. 440C will work fine in a knife, but it does not match the performance of most of the PM grades.

There are a lot of steels used in knives with very small or no primary carbides. Their performance and popularity also cannot be ignored. I prefer high carbide steel, but that wasn't even available for most of the history of cutlery.
 
The three most often talked about attributes of steels would be 1) wear resistance 2) corrosion resistance, and 3) toughness. It's rare for a steel to have the trifecta of high numbers in all of them. There are stainless steels that do it better than 440C in all three attributes. Some of them are:

1) Elmax
2) M390 & 20CV
3) 154cm & CPM 154, ATS 34, RWL 34
4) BG42
5) CTS-XHP
6) S30V
7) S90V

Etc. There are more. In addition there are a bunch that have significant advantages in one, or two attributes that make using that steel worth while for a particular job. Example: H1, though not as wear resistant is both tougher, and more corrosion resistant and would make a better blade for some jobs requiring that amazing corrosion resistance.

Some will find some of these steels attributes incorrect in their experience or in a chart they have seen somewhere. I have no problem with that and really don't have any dog in this fight. In fact, I don't have a charpy machine so I really can't prove one steel is tougher than another, or more wear resistant, or better against salt spray. Mostly I'm doing what everybody does. Parroting someone's experience and chart.

My general belief is there is no "best" steel. Steels are designed with certain jobs in mind but having better wear resistance, for example, doesn't make a steel "better" or worse. It might be better at Stirring paint, but that doesn't make it a better steel IMO.
 
Isn't 440C actually a lot better in corrosion resistance than ATS 34 for example? Not sure about the rest of steels in the list. The problem is that a lot chromium ends up in carbides in high-alloy steels and thus isn't able to increase corrosion resistance. But it's only the corrosion resistance, where 440C stands out. I couldn't agree more with your line "there is no best steel" and I think people need to be constantly reminded of that, so that they don't fall for any new super steel that's brought to the market. New steels are nonetheless sexy, but imagine an axe made out of CPM-S110V...^^
 
Gator-You asked why settle, and I gave numerous reasone why 440C would be settled on, and none of those reasons included "because the majority said so". You are content to argue that 440C should be thrown in the garbage, I am willing to accept that it is more than acceptable for many people. If you read what I wrote, I am not a fan of 440C, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used for knives- which is all I can infer that you are talking about.

I've given my opinions on the matter- good day gentlemen and ladies.
 
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When ATS-34 was most popular, bead-blast finishing was also popular... which encourages surface rust. Many people blame the steel, incorrectly.

Heat treat directly affects corrosion resistance, too.
Poorly heat treated stainless can and will rust as if it were carbon steel.
 
not poor heat treat, but higher temperature tempering to precipitate more carbides and increase wear resistance at the expense of corrosion resistance.
 
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