440C steel--- i think its about time

The most important thing to remember in these discussions about steel is that whatever is being cut doesn't give a rat's ass if it cost $2 or $200, or whether or not the blade hardness is more than 2RC points off of the manufacturers claim.
 
Just want to point out my understanding is 1 or 2 RC can make a big difference. Soligen also used 420 steel. I like the 420 steel on a Boker top lock. It's super sharp and cuts just fine.
 
Of course it can, but not to the guy that tried to mug you in the parking lot!
Or to my steak...
 
Generally speaking, "440C class" are all slight variations, there is no definitive "better", unless we count in the PM versions, which 440C has PM version itself, but not well known.

440C as the generic has a wide range of acceptable value, from 0.95% up to 1.2% Carbon content is acceptable for example, that's about 20% value different. So the performance performance vary a lot, then you have a tons of different analogues. Therefore using 440C as a the starting point to compare is already problematic. I take it at the 1% C and 17Cr then my personal speculation.

154CM has probably the best cutting performance of the "440C class" because of the higher carbide elements, but has lower toughness and weaker rust resistance.

N690 has better cutting and rust resistance. This is probably the most straight "upgrade" to 440C in the this class, perharp why European makers switch to it.

VG10 has better performance and blade stability, but less rust resistance. Probably the best one for fine edge.

AUS10 favors toughness based to its lower alloying element, therefore correlated to overall less rust resistance and cutting performance (cold steel knives are too thick for good cutting anyway).

9Cr18Mov/95cr18mov... way too similar to 440B/C. It is analogue for a reason.

Must note that the differences between these steels are so tiny that even on Larrin's table they make 0.5pts difference at best, if not less.
 
Dav1 said:
Thinking about it in the opposite let's get rid of all those "useless" old steels such as those terrible simple carbon steels, 51200, 5160, 80crv2, the old Sandvik steels, 420hc etc...
Then you could pay 500 for a large machete in a "super steel" or similar for an Axe or Parang. Would they be any better "in the field" tha
n a 20 dollar Tramontina, which if chipped is a doddle to reprofile?

The more I think about it the more stupid the question is.

Many of these steels and I'd include 440 series steels in the list are used for hard use working blades, cheap to manufacture durable and easily maintained (often more important someone who uses their knife/tool daily). This will also make up the vast majority of products from larger companies who may sell many thousands, "our" market is tiny in comparison thus our opinions don't really matter.

I use tools (carpentry) daily for hard use, my hand tools (chisels, planes etc..) are made up of old tools from the early 1900's up to Veritas and Lie Neilsen chisels, planes and saws. I use them all and the older tools I often prefer perhaps for reasons you may not find in the "Knife world" such as certain patterns aren't made anymore and come in extremely useful.
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Right there with you mate. A lot of this "supersteel" thing is more of a marketing ploy, than a functional benefit. at least in the "domestic use" knife market. Yes, S90V and REX120 will hold an edge for as long as an edge can be held...but, the time for a re-sharpen or touch-up, no matter the steel. will come sooner, rather than later, if the knife is subject to lots of use.

Ever tried to touch-up some S90V or REX120 ? The time it takes, is almost generational, unless you have a machine-shop in your kit. It's not something you're going to be able to do in some sort of fantasy "survival" situation, or even daily after using, say, a Lie-Nielson plane to surface a hundred running-feet of crazed-grain Rosewood such as Cocobolo, or Purpleheart ( Amaranth ), or West African Ebony...which is probably why Lie-Nielson uses A2 tool steel.

I guess it all depends on intended use, supersteels have a place, but so do the " inferior " steels. I like 440C, and 1095.
 
Iowa Boy said:
Right there with you mate. A lot of this "supersteel" thing is more of a marketing ploy, than a functional benefit. at least in the "domestic use" knife market. Yes, S90V and REX120 will hold an edge for as long as an edge can be held...but, the time for a re-sharpen or touch-up, no matter the steel. will come sooner, rather than later, if the knife is subject to lots of use.

Ever tried to touch-up some S90V or REX120 ? The time it takes, is almost generational, unless you have a machine-shop in your kit. It's not something you're going to be able to do in some sort of fantasy "survival" situation, or even daily after using, say, a Lie-Nielson plane to surface a hundred running-feet of crazed-grain Rosewood such as Cocobolo, or Purpleheart ( Amaranth ), or West African Ebony...which is probably why Lie-Nielson uses A2 tool steel.

I guess it all depends on intended use, supersteels have a place, but so do the " inferior " steels. I like 440C, and 1095.
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If you use the right abrasive there is no difference in sharpening between 1095 and S90V and Maxamet. I know from personal experience. The edge geometry makes much more difference in sharpening time required than the steel type.

Also, there is considerable difference between the steels in real life use. You just need to "use" them to appreciate the differences, and the difference is not only the wear resistance but the way they cut. On my kitchen knife block, I have knives in CPM 154, 52100, MagnaCut, Z-Max (similar to Maxamet), LC200N, and 12C27. I can tell the difference in use. For instance after a few days of use 52100 and LC200N will no longer easily cut through the skin of a soft tomato but Z-Max and MangaCut will keep doing that for a long time. I am not even mentioning the corrosion resistance hence maintenance differences between them. You will also see a clear difference if you try to cut fibrous or organic materials with those steels. Try to cut some raw meat or fish with low alloy steel and they try to cut it with a high alloy steel. The difference would be like a day and night if you compare them side by side.
 
murat1983 said:
......Try to cut some raw meat or fish with low alloy steel and they try to cut it with a high alloy steel. The difference would be like a day and night if you compare them side by side.
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Could you elaborate on this bit please?
 
I find raw meat, cooked meat, fish, and things like that to be the easiest and most forgiving to cut. I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. If on the other hand I was cutting up a deer or 300 Lb hog then I would probably be doing a lot less touch ups and/or sharpening with a super steel . That is not to say a regular steel would not do the job reasonably well because although I have zero experience skinning game I know how to read and regular steel has been up to the task for a long time.

It's also a loaded question. There are many different types of steel that excel in different types of use and unfortunately marketing hype is used to sell them as well as the decision to use them on knives that may or may not be the best design choices to exploit the properties of the steel. There is so little down to earth truthful discloser concerning the best uses of these steels by the companies that sell products using the steels.

The most jazziest looking knife using the most popular super steel may not really be the best knife to use. It may actually be worse. That is not even mentioning the heat treats done to make these steels perform in ways they are not meant to. Can it be done, sure. You wind up with a popular super steel they will market and hype that performs a task worse than a much less expensive steel that is designed and optimized from the ground up for that task.

Consumers need to be more inquisitive and ask what the stuff really is rather than just think oh it's the best super steel around it's got to be the better choice.
 
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Someone's super steel may be someone else's compromise metal
I may be super hesitant to put a lot of trust in plane Jane 440c but I have no interest in investing too much in the super steel of today, it's like constantly upgrading your computer so you can keep playing the latest games, non stop money vampire --- what's a good super steel that's on everyone's hot topic list... magnacut, oh boy, super space age, lots of manufacturers are going bananas with it, I have 4 of Dawson's knives made in the stuff but I'm not head over heels, and magnacut definitely isn't going to obsolete any other steel. Given time, magnacut will be yesterday's news.
 
I am shocked, I say, SHOCKED at all this love for 440C steel.

Supersteels arre SUPER, it's not a marketing ploy as many have claimed. If somebody cannot tell the difference between 440 and S90V, that doesn't mean there's no difference. What about beers? Sure, you may prefer PBR over the barrel-aged double IPA, but everyone else knows only rubes drink PBR. We all know you just can't afford the good stuff. No need to virtue-signal yourself, it's embarrassing.

Please stop with this fawning over primitive materials and techniques just because "Grandpa used a 440 knife, and he was my Grandpa". He also crapped in an outhouse, but you're not idolizing that part of the good old days, are you?

Happy Thanksgiving
 
Malty Falcon said:
I am shocked, I say, SHOCKED at all this love for 440C steel.

Supersteels arre SUPER, it's not a marketing ploy as many have claimed. If somebody cannot tell the difference between 440 and S90V, that doesn't mean there's no difference. What about beers? Sure, you may prefer PBR over the barrel-aged double IPA, but everyone else knows only rubes drink PBR. We all know you just can't afford the good stuff. No need to virtue-signal yourself, it's embarrassing. just because "Grandpa used a 440 knife, and he was my Grandpa". He also crapped in an outhouse, but you're not idolizing that part of the good old days, are you?
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I'll have you know I been goin' in the same crapshack as my grandpappy for years now. He fought in Ko-rea. FOR YOU. You sayin' you wouldn't take a deuce in my grandpappy's commode as a sign of respect?!
So, what I guess I'm asking is, why do you hate America?

Malty Falcon said:
Please stop with this fawning over primitive materials and techniques just because "Grandpa used a 440 knife, and he was my Grandpa". He also crapped in an outhouse, but you're not idolizing that part of the good old days, are you?

Happy Thanksgiving
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But, ah, primitive? Really? A knife that cut well 50 years ago doesn't fall apart because better alloys exist. XHP is regarded highly by the creator of the thread, that "can be described as a tougher 440c", or BD1N, a modern cutlery steel that is the same old Gin-1 alloy Spyderco first used, with a bit of Nitrogen, it is great, very stainless stuff that sharpens well and holds edge longer, so the marketing hype goes a long way.

They aren't primitive, to be sure. I don't think anyone's gonna see THIS....
20221107_220658-jpg.1982162

and go "Oh, what a fine specimen, is it from the Neolithic? What museum does it belong to?"


"Hey copper! I wouldn't finish writing that ticket if I was you..."
"Whatcha got there now, a 420HC Buck 119? HAAAAHAHAHAHA! Whaddaya gonna do next, get in this car and scoot paddle it back like the Flintstones? HAAAA friggin' loser, Jumpin Moses Jehovah by gash"
 
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Malty Falcon said:
I am shocked, I say, SHOCKED at all this love for 440C steel.

Supersteels arre SUPER, it's not a marketing ploy as many have claimed. If somebody cannot tell the difference between 440 and S90V, that doesn't mean there's no difference. What about beers? Sure, you may prefer PBR over the barrel-aged double IPA, but everyone else knows only rubes drink PBR. We all know you just can't afford the good stuff. No need to virtue-signal yourself, it's embarrassing.

Please stop with this fawning over primitive materials and techniques just because "Grandpa used a 440 knife, and he was my Grandpa". He also crapped in an outhouse, but you're not idolizing that part of the good old days, are you?

Happy Thanksgiving
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Malty Falcon said:
I am shocked, I say, SHOCKED at all this love for 440C steel.

Supersteels arre SUPER, it's not a marketing ploy as many have claimed. If somebody cannot tell the difference between 440 and S90V, that doesn't mean there's no difference. What about beers? Sure, you may prefer PBR over the barrel-aged double IPA, but everyone else knows only rubes drink PBR. We all know you just can't afford the good stuff. No need to virtue-signal yourself, it's embarrassing.

Please stop with this fawning over primitive materials and techniques just because "Grandpa used a 440 knife, and he was my Grandpa". He also crapped in an outhouse, but you're not idolizing that part of the good old days, are you?

Happy Thanksgiving
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Just because a knife is a 'super steel' doesn't make it automatically better than everything "under" it. Do you also throw out your computer, or forget about it and box it up when a newer "more powerful" one is released the following year?
 
J. Doyle said:
Could you elaborate on this bit please?
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Low alloy steels dulls faster on cleaning and filleting fish relative to high alloys. That is also the case with raw meat. But I was not particularly talking about the wear or deformation resistance while doing these tasks. The way high alloy steels cuts is simply different, they seem to go through the meat or organic tissues faster and more efficient. But I must admit, this might not be due to only the alloy content. I tend to highly polish the edge on low allow steels whereas the edges on my high alloy steels are relatively coarser. For hard wood cutting/carving, I prefer relatively lower alloy steels as the edge deformation resistance is usually higher on these.
 
I like to try new steels and appreciate the differences in them. However, if I really like a knife and it is not in my favorite steel, I will buy it (apart from 420 or equivalent), if I see a knife in my favorite steels but I do not like the design, I will not buy it. I enjoy picking different steels, knife geometry and designs for different tasks. What I am trying to say is, the steel choice is not a deal breaker for me as long as the knife is right for the given task. But it is one of the factors that I would consider along with the other materials used on making the knife when deciding if the asking price is justified.
 
murat1983 said:
Low alloy steels dulls faster on cleaning and filleting fish relative to high alloys. That is also the case with raw meat. But I was not particularly talking about the wear or deformation resistance while doing these tasks. The way high alloy steels cuts is simply different, they seem to go through the meat or organic tissues faster and more efficient. But I must admit, this might not be due to only the alloy content. I tend to highly polish the edge on low allow steels whereas the edges on my high alloy steels are relatively coarser. For hard wood cutting/carving, I prefer relatively lower alloy steels as the edge deformation resistance is usually higher on these.
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Thanks for the clarification.

I was/am having trouble with the part about low alloy steels cutting different than high alloy ones, especially initially before wear resistance takes effect. If two nearly identical blades had similar edge geometry and finishes but one was a simple steel and one a high alloy steel, there shouldn't be any noticeable difference in how they cut at first.

But if there are any variables introduced or more cutting then I could see noticing a difference.
 
justjed said:
The most important thing to remember in these discussions about steel is that whatever is being cut doesn't give a rat's ass if it cost $2 or $200, or whether or not the blade hardness is more than 2RC points off of the manufacturers claim.
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BLASPHEMY!!!

If anybody ever cuts me, it better be with a $500+ (usd) blade at 64 hrc, or I just simply won't accept it...

Because I care!
 
J. Doyle said:
Thanks for the clarification.

I was/am having trouble with the part about low alloy steels cutting different than high alloy ones, especially initially before wear resistance takes effect. If two nearly identical blades had similar edge geometry and finishes but one was a simple steel and one a high alloy steel, there shouldn't be any noticeable difference in how they cut at first.

But if there are any variables introduced or more cutting then I could see noticing a difference.
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Yes with the same edge finish there might not be a difference in initial cuts but the difference could be quite considerable right after a few cuts. It would be interesting to test this with two identical knives, one with high alloy and one with low alloy steels having same edge finish. Theoretically both might cut the same until the toothy edge starts to degrade on low alloy steel but the high alloy steel would have more carbide therefore the toothy structure will be there even after the matrix around he carbides starts to wear off. Also microstructure of the edge could be different. The high alloy edge might have higher sharper edge due to carbides having sharper edges relative to the edge with low alloy steel where the toothy structure will be softer as it is mainly the matrix steel.
 
""You sayin' you wouldn't take a deuce in my grandpappy's commode as a sign of respect?!""

Uh, respect? Not sure of the appropriate answer, maybe 440C?
 
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