440C steel--- i think its about time

Below 8cr is where I draw the line for an active user knife. I have a few small Kershaw's in 8cr and they are just fine for what they are. Cheap and easy to resharpen corrosion resistant within reason. They loose the edge just as fast as they take a new one. Aus8, vg10, 440b, 440c, n690, and a plethora of others are easy to consider inferior but they are also easy to touch up on the sharpmaker at work while taking lunch.

SomebodySomewhere said:
As for 440C, I think about the steel my grandparents knew (I’m old, so this was a while ago), and they’d have rightly seen 440C as an incredibly balanced but affordable wonder material. It does the job.
Click to expand...
I didn't know my grandparents but I would say this is probably spot on.
 
SomebodySomewhere said:
N690 suffers because it doesn’t cost a fortune, I think. As I actually get to know knives, I increasingly think about the balance of elements, and N690 seems incredibly well balanced for the price.

https://arnobernard.com/blogs/to-the-point/n690-bohler-steel-and-why-it-s-the-best-choice-for-you-1

As for 440C, I think about the steel my grandparents knew (I’m old, so this was a while ago), and they’d have rightly seen 440C as an incredibly balanced but affordable wonder material. It does the job.

I fight with my own steel snobbery constantly, I have to say, though. The hype is hard to resist.
Click to expand...
I actually didn't really realize that Arno Bernard used N690 in his fixed blades. I think I've seen it many times but didn't really notice since my opinion became that N690 is an awesome working steel. I love me some Arno Bernard and that gives me even more reason to try one of their fixed blades since I've already been wanting one. I have to chill a bit on knife purchases for a bit, but will probably get one sometime in the not too distant future, thanks for making me aware.
 
TC said:
Randall still uses 440B/C for their stainless blades. By all accounts they are able to sell all they make. Why, there's even a 5 year waiting list...
Click to expand...
I don't think that five year wait-list fact supports the argument on its own.

First you need to know production numbers. ...I have a decade long wait-list. I make one a decade :p

And another, to the OP's point, maybe the choice of steel is actually keeping demand down and switching to 154cm or something else would push it well past a five year wait.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TC
LimpCroissant said:
I actually didn't really realize that Arno Bernard used N690 in his fixed blades. I think I've seen it many times but didn't really notice since my opinion became that N690 is an awesome working steel. I love me some Arno Bernard and that gives me even more reason to try one of their fixed blades since I've already been wanting one. I have to chill a bit on knife purchases for a bit, but will probably get one sometime in the not too distant future, thanks for making me aware.
Click to expand...
view

Better get one before N690 is gone aswell.
 
I have a lot more knives than I need now I'm old and there are a bunch of steels I won't buy anymore and 440c is one of them. I will still buy a 1095 knife without hesitation though so just wear resistance isn't an issue. 440C has enough for me . That isn't it. I learned to dislike it back when I only had Arkansas stones in the 70's but now there are other steels I actually like using a lot more. Even some in that general wear resistance class like CPM 154 and VG 10 still get use with me . I'm a tool steel guy at heart though and steels like Cruwear, 4V, 3V, up to A11 class like K390 and 10V just warm my heart and open my wallet quicker.
 
I'm using some 440c from benchmade and it lost its sharpness fast, and won't Resharpen easily, but those are just my findings
 
kreole said:
I don't think that five year wait-list fact supports the argument on its own.

First you need to know production numbers. ...I have a decade long wait-list. I make one a decade :p

And another, to the OP's point, maybe the choice of steel is actually keeping demand down and switching to 154cm or something else would push it well past a five year wait.
Click to expand...

Yeah well, my statement was a bit tongue-in-cheek ;) Just trying to mention one of the old-time, highly respected (for whatever reasons), and collectible makers.

Oh, and did I mention I have a 440C knife incoming? :D
 
I have myself convinced I have rather corrosive body chemistry and I have a knack for either making tool and carbon steels rust at a faster rate simply because my sweat and my skin oils are more corrosive than others, as well as making a knife edge lose its sharpness before it sees enough use to actually lose its edge, it boggles my mind every time, now I can pinch the edge of my bemchmade 440c and leave a purpleish crease color on my thumb but no broken skin. I will go ahead and say I believe properly HT 440c is good for a dagger because the primary use of daggers aren't for every day cutting, but will satisfy a daggers jobs
 
ShaiHulud said:
I'm using some 440c from benchmade and it lost its sharpness fast, and won't Resharpen easily, but those are just my findings
Click to expand...
I’m glad you wrote this - I thought this whole post was just a troll to get people riled up.

As you mentioned in your first post, people say it’s all about HT because HT is extremely important to how steel behaves.

Unless/until you’ve tried a particular steel from a few custom makers who are doing careful HT in small batches it’s hard to make accurate generalizations.

There are probably many knives made in modern super steels with bad HT that behave just like your Benchmade 440C.

440C was about the best stainless you could get not very long ago, and as long as it remains relatively inexpensive it will fill a role.
 
ShaiHulud said:
I'm using some 440c from benchmade and it lost its sharpness fast, and won't Resharpen easily, but those are just my findings
Click to expand...

ShaiHulud said:
I have myself convinced I have rather corrosive body chemistry and I have a knack for either making tool and carbon steels rust at a faster rate simply because my sweat and my skin oils are more corrosive than others, as well as making a knife edge lose its sharpness before it sees enough use to actually lose its edge, it boggles my mind every time, now I can pinch the edge of my bemchmade 440c and leave a purpleish crease color on my thumb but no broken skin. I will go ahead and say I believe properly HT 440c is good for a dagger because the primary use of daggers aren't for every day cutting, but will satisfy a daggers jobs
Click to expand...
It could be your sharpening technique.

440C likes to keep a burr. The alloy feels a bit "gummy" when sharpening, and tends to keep flopping the burr back and forth. Once you eliminate that and create a truer edge apex you should see better results.

What are you using to sharpen your knife?
 
I don't see why 440C would not be improved from vintage "440C" with today's powder metal technology, but I don't think there is any reason to as XHP is an improved "440C" XHP Steel – History and Properties.. You can read how Carpenter was trying to get the corrosion resistance of 440C and improving the hardness and toughness. Changing 440C from a ladle poured steel to something requiring more processing would raise the cost.

I do remember how the knife community was mislead back in the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's, etc, about what was 440C or not. What I read in the open press of the period did praise 440C to the high heavens, but never mentioned what was labeled "440" was actually 440A. When I purchased my first Randalls in the 1970's, the literature claimed the stainless Randalls were 440. I remember looking up 440 steel in a Machinery's Handbook and finding 440A, 440B, and 440C material properties. Nothing in the knife press at the time discussed 440A or 440B, the only information was about 440C. And I assumed what was being sold as 440 was in fact 440C. It was not.

Sometimes in the middle to late 1990's I was in the Randall Shop in Orlando, and I asked one of the sons of Bo Randall why they were not using the latest steels, such as ATS 34, and it was from the son that I found out that Randall 440 was in fact 440B!

Jay Fisher has written a long and interesting article on 440C

440C: A Love/Hate Affair

440C- A Love Hate Affair by Jay Fisher

440C knife blade steel pros, cons, comparisons, advantages, myths, truth
www.jayfisher.com

I do like this comment of Jay’s:

440C has been around a while. It's not a new, exciting, or proprietary steel, it's not a gimmick, not a flash in the pan. It's been around a while strictly because it is a very good steel; it has staying power. The same thing can be said of D2, the extremely high carbon die steel, and the same can be said of O1, oil hardening tool and die steel. These (and many others) are not new steels, and thus, they are not as exciting as some of the newer alloys.

There are some interesting things about knife steel alloys that makers and manufacturers seldom talk about. It's the constant attempt to hype-sell the steel, to present some new and exciting alloy as the best, the superior, the finest, the optimum, the top quality, the most durable, the most attractive, and the most valuable. Every one of these descriptive words mean absolutely nothing about the final finished product of a hand knife, nothing at all! These are not terms defined and recorded in any engineer's handbook, in any American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) reference, in any ASME, or ASTM, or ANSI charts or literature about steels. They are sales adjectives created to make certain knives more appealing. So when someone comes up with a new alloy, they give it a new name or number, and then throw out those tiresome adjectives in hopes of hooking a fish or two that are excited about that shiny lure of a new steel. This is advertising 101, and I hope you recognize the process.
 
dirc said:
since n690 knives have been discussed - the cobalt addition does change some properties - noticeably the secondary tempering hardness bump seen around 800F

Larrin wrote a great article about it, if you want to deep dive -> https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/14/why-there-is-cobalt-in-vg-10/
I think it's a good read which aligns with many points in this thread
Click to expand...
Thank you, I'll give that a read. N690, aus8, and 3v are my favorites. Nothing special but they work for me.
 
I don't know why 440C gets a bad rap. But it's mostly a USA thing. Quite a few European and S. African makers swear by it, even when it's not the only steel available.
But, it's like any other steel. Get your heat treatment dialed in correctly for the alloy, and you can deliver a very good knife, whether hand-made or production.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top