440C steel--- i think its about time

[JoeBusic]

440C should be cheaper but it's still wanted a lot and the price reflects that.
N690 is somewhat nonsense for knives over 440C. Co addition means nothing in low temp temper. No one will sacrifice some stainlessness for a maybe smudge in edge retention. Some companies ban N690 in there use because of Co. It's carcinogenic (don't think it matters but there are fanatics in other disciplines, too). Co sounds cool.
For those who think HC steels can get a sharper edge: razors are stainless. Surgical blades are stainless. Most industry is using stainless when sharpness and endurance is key.
1095 has bad toughness. Nerd site has it all. Just one click away
420HC can out tough majority of HC steels. Why there aren't stainless choppers is a matter of religion.
Dive knives are shit. It's like a disposable when compared to a ...knife. Butter knives have better heat treatment (pun thing )
CPM 1095 would be the same as 1095. Want it better: grain refine it more or go to mar-bainite. Still it won't be tough as 420HC and edge retention is lower. Really, I don't understand the hype around 1095. If something has to go it's the HC steels, knife related.

 

[JoeBusic]

(my 1075 machete is probably up there but dont think it was tested)

1075 is in the plate martensite danger. It can't be tough.

 

[shane45-1911]

... you should read -> https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/06...ents-of-52100-o1-and-1095-how-much-toughness/
the graphs near the end are fairly clear - if you want tough stainless - you get aeb-l (or 420hc)
if you want tough non-stainless - you get 8670 (or 5160)

not much else comes close to those....
(my 1075 machete is probably up there but dont think it was tested)

We were talking about 1095 vs 440C.

 

[shane45-1911]

Are you just comparing 1095 to 440C or all stainless steels?

There are stainless steels that will perform just as well as 1095 if not better for toughness/chopping etc.

That is a broad brush stroke. Too many variables. What edge geometry? What hardness? What thickness blade stock?

1095 is a jack of all trades that performs well with differing variables I mentioned.

Again, we were talking about 1095 vs. 440C. Or at least SomebodySomewhere and I were.....

 

[shane45-1911]

For those who think HC steels can get a sharper edge: razors are stainless. Surgical blades are stainless. Most industry is using stainless when sharpness and endurance is key.,,,,,

You are talking apples and oranges. I do not want my hard use outdoor knife to be scalpel or razor blade thin.

I never said SS could not get very sharp. But for all intents and purposes, AND ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, 1095 is quite capable of taking a very sharp edge.

Why there aren't stainless choppers is a matter of religion.

And there is definitely a reason why most (all?) competition choppers are not stainless, and it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[strategy9]

It's about time we finally can the steel, am I right?
People say it's all in the heat treatment. However
At the additional price point, you are better off buying serviceable 154CM. Thoughts?

You are not right... 440c when properly treated from a reputable maker, is still a fine steel for general purposes...

Don't forget, many in the general populace are still okay with 420hc, and 7cr-5cr-& 3crXYZ is still sold quite regularly... if there is still a place for those, and still a place for 10xx, there is still a place in the market for 440c.

 

[BD_01]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

All of my dive knives have been a bit soft with mediocre edge retention compared to my land knives. I’m sure they’re 440 something. I consider them ‘dive tools,’ as while I’ve done some net cutting and clearing, more often I use them for prying, digging, chiseling & etc. It’s probably better they’re run soft.

They will develop corrosion (with time) if I don’t rinse them in fresh water after a dive (with the rest of my gear), but I don’t bother drying them or giving them any other special care. So I would say they’re far from rust prone.

Incidentally, I carry a dedicated line cutter in my BCD in case of ensnarement &/or loss of my dive tool.

 

[shane45-1911]

CPM 1095 would be the same as 1095.

I don't think you understand the CPM process, or how it better randomizes the carbides and elements at a nano level. (Or if you do understand, then your statement is contradictory).

 

[JoeBusic]

You are talking apples and oranges. I do not want my hard use outdoor knife to be scalpel or razor blade thin.

I never said SS could not get very sharp. But for all intents and purposes, AND ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, 1095 is quite capable of taking a very sharp edge.

And there is definitely a reason why most (all?) competition choppers are not stainless, and it has nothing to do with religion.

I'm a carnivore so fruit is a stranger to me.
1095 will start dulling in just air when humidity is above 40%.
I understand your points but still believe it's religion. Any SS with small carbides can be used for a chopper. If Sandvik made 14C28N in 6 and 8mm there would be choppers out of them.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Something to keep in mind for those that are carbon steel devotees, and I have no problem with carbon steel in certain applications, one of the biggest reasons for its proliferation is it is significantly cheaper at every single step. It also was a large part of what allowed the boom in small home based knife makers to begin making knives in recent years. Many of these makers did not have access or ability to heat treat stainless, and carbon is much more forgiving when it comes to heat treat, especially if you don't get it just right.

So of course, everyone had to be convinced of how superior carbon steel was for nearly every single task. This is similar to the fixation on full tang vs any other style of knife. There is now growing popularity with stainless again, as people are getting more educated and using knives more and not just buying off of what forums and "internet" people say.

Sam

 

[justjed]

If Sandvik made 14C28N in 6 and 8mm there would be choppers out of them.

I wish they would!

 

[JoeBusic]

I don't think you understand the CPM process, or how it better randomizes the carbides and elements at a nano level. (Or if you do understand, then your statement is contradictory).

When you austenitise 1095 fully and quench it will be the same no matter if it's CPM or not. If it's forged it will lose all the nano benefits (if any). Same goes when normalized. It's just a waste of time. 440C could use some powdering.

 

[Larrin]

Maybe N690 proves that 440C is a good knife steel. It is just 440C with cobalt which doesn’t really make the properties any better. But in Europe there are plenty of makers arguing the stuff is amazing. The placebo effect is strong and the steel works fine.

 

[shane45-1911]

It's just a waste of time.

We will agree to disagree. I don't believe it is as much a waste of time, as it is a waste of money. People don't want a specialized CPM process applied to a non premium steel. CPM 1095 would cost more than standard forged 1095, and then you are getting into super steel price brackets.

We do agree that if you are paying a premium for the process, there are other higher alloyed steels that benefit more from it than "simple" 1095.

 

[dirc]

1075 is in the plate martensite danger. It can't be tough.

... I'm not sure you understand this... steels under the eutectic point are tough - but once you start boosting the carbon over about 0.85% , you end up with more brittle steel the higher you go...
1075 will give you lath martensite - not plate martensite - plate is what you get as the carbon % goes higher

Bainite vs Martensite - The Secret to Ultimate Toughness? - Knife Steel Nerds

Thanks to Thomas Busch for becoming a Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporter! Misc. update: I have added a set of supporting micrographs to the introduction to Austenitizing steel. Tempered Martensite To begin describing what bainite is it makes sense to start with martensite first. To form...

knifesteelnerds.com

https://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/1849770/ACF180B.pdf

Eutectic system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is exactly why companies like ontario have switched from using 1095 to 1075 - they are far less likely to snap ... some good reading

OKC's SP series 1095 switch to 1075 steel...

The switch to 1075 carbon steel from 1095 carbon steel on the majority of the OKC SP series, (non Gen2), is said to have been done 2-3 years ago. The following is a post put up by Paul Tsujimoto (Toooj) recently on this forum. It gives a short bit of insight into why the decision to switch was...

www.bladeforums.com

also - this is worth reading

Dan Maragni Intro / 1095-1075 Switch

Ontario Knife Company Resident knife expert Dan Maragni introduces himself and explains the decision to make the switch from 1075 steel to 1095.

ontarioknife.com

 

[chalby]

That is a broad brush stroke. Too many variables. What edge geometry? What hardness? What thickness blade stock?

1095 is a jack of all trades that performs well with differing variables I mentioned.

Again, we were talking about 1095 vs. 440C. Or at least SomebodySomewhere and I were.....

Since you asked, you could use the same edge geometry, blade stock and hardness for a number of stainless steels and end up with an as good if not better performing chopper. The main reasons that you see a lot of 1095 is that has the reputation(ain't broke don't fix it) and it is generally cheaper and easier for the manufacturer to work with, not because it is superior.

I did ask whether you were comparing just the two steels btw.

 

[shane45-1911]

I did ask whether you were comparing just the two steels btw.

And I answered "yes".

The main reasons that you see a lot of 1095 is that has the reputation(ain't broke don't fix it) and it is generally cheaper and easier for the manufacturer to work with, not because it is superior.

"Superior" is relative. There are reasons beyond "cheaper and easier" why 1095 is chosen, and its reputation has been earned. It is very forgiving of variable heat treatment/tempering inconsistencies, yet still performs adequately even when things aren't done "just right". It's not going to catastrophically self destruct like some SS if the forging and tempering process isn't precise.

 

[old4570]

Hmmmm , it simply comes down to how well it's cooked ( made ) .
So much 440c is actually crMov of some sort . ( such is life )

440C Steel Review: Is it a Good Knife Steel?

In the world of carbon steel, 440C has a history of 20 years when it comes to making knives. Big brands such as Buck and Benchmade have been using it to make

www.knifeguides.com

Lots of charts to look at

It's simply , how well it's cooked ..
I own crMov that can kick D2 to the curb ..
And I own D2 that can run with super steel ..
Buy enough knives , and you will see what a lottery it is .

Also a lot of people dont play with the edge at all . Because your steel may have a preference for a sharpening method / grit / bevel angle .. ( To get the most from it )
Most people don't want to get that involved .

 

[Sam Wilson]

How well it's cooked is important, but edge geometry is also extremely important. The absolute best heat treat and the best "super" steel left with an overly thick or fat grind and edge, is going to be utterly worthless.

This is one of the big problems when you hear people talk about comparing "company X's 154CM" and "company Y's D2" and "company Z's 440C." Unless they are all the same thickness, same edge thickness, same grind and same hardness, those comparisons mean very little, if anything.

An aggressively ground decent steel with good heat treat is going to absolutely smoke a much higher quality steel with a significantly thicker edge grind. And will continue cutting far more aggressively than a thicker ground knife which has otherwise "superior" attributes.

This is why actual testing of identical blades is so important, and talking about various companies versions of steel in different knives people have owned in the past means so little. They are typically left thicker to prevent warranty issue, not to absolutely optimize the ability of the steel. And this goes for grind, edge thickness, and hardness.

Sam

Hmmmm , it simply comes down to how well it's cooked ( made ) .
So much 440c is actually crMov of some sort . ( such is life )

440C Steel Review: Is it a Good Knife Steel?

In the world of carbon steel, 440C has a history of 20 years when it comes to making knives. Big brands such as Buck and Benchmade have been using it to make

www.knifeguides.com

Lots of charts to look at

It's simply , how well it's cooked ..
I own crMov that can kick D2 to the curb ..
And I own D2 that can run with super steel ..
Buy enough knives , and you will see what a lottery it is .

Also a lot of people dont play with the edge at all . Because your steel may have a preference for a sharpening method / grit / bevel angle .. ( To get the most from it )
Most people don't want to get that involved .

 

[Hashishiin]

For those who think HC steels can get a sharper edge: razors are stainless. Surgical blades are stainless. Most industry is using stainless when sharpness and endurance is key.

I think you ignore geometry.