440C steel--- i think its about time

[shane45-1911]

”High alloy and stainless steels are superior in every conceivable way to low alloy, low carbon steels and standard steels apart from two:

1. 440C costs more than plain carbon steels and standard steels.
2. 440C can not be worked in an open air forge or furnace without destroying it.“

This statement makes sense to me.

It makes sense until you start talking about wear resistance, edge retention, strength, ease of sharpening, etc. You know, things that are kind of important in a knife....

The choice of steel is as much about the intended application, as the steel itself.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Deleted.

 

[VorpelSword]

I am not Really steel-savy, but:

I had the impression that both 440C and 154Cm were thought of as good knife steels in their day, but that other modern steels havenow been shown to be superior.

Have I got that right?

 

[shane45-1911]

100 percent, but high alloy and stainless steels seem to win at basically every application apart from cost and ease of workability compared with, say, 1095.

Completely incorrect.

If you are doing a lot of serious chopping, especially with the chance of lateral strikes - nothing works better than 1095 (or 52100 or 5160) for toughness. All other things being equal, higher carbon steel will not chip or crack if you happen not to hit exactly perpendicular to what you are chopping..

Also, the nature of 1095 (and higher carbon steels in general) allows for a very sharp edge that is often times not achievable in stainless at the the same edge geometry and profile.

Even if I were working in a swamp, my choice of a hard-use knife will ALWAYS be higher carbon. It's not that hard to wipe it down at the end of the day. 40+ years of outdoor, all-weather use with 1095 in dozens of different models, I do not have a knife with a single spec of rust on it.

 

[Hashishiin]

I understand perfectly well, I just figured If we are tossing one good steel and by the same logic should toss all other non 2022 super steels I would offer a safe place for them.

Like all things in life new things come along, it doesn't mean the old things stop working. I shoot a .30-06 and to alot of people it's the same as 440c... Dead. Is it old? Yes it is. Does it work just fine for what it is? Yes it does. There are no secrets left to it. So a company can produce it with zero R&D cost. Whatever you would need to know about the steel can be found on YouTube. That doesn't make it bad

Edit to add: it occurs to me my opinion is probably null and void as I'm sitting here playing sudoku on paper with a pencil....

As a young person, I can say that these type of opinions have influenced me greatly and I highly agree - I would take a .30.06 over the newest crazy AR platform Valkyrie .22x coming out, and the more I use knives, the more I tend to tough, rugged tool steels, but my favorite stainless are simple - Buck 440HC, (CTS) XHP and BD1N, AEB-L are all great for me, despite being low-alloy or whatever.

 

[dogstar]

I'm still okay with properly heat treated 440c and 440b and 440a even.

My experience with 440a has been good as well. It would not be a deterrent for me.

 

[Hashishiin]

100 percent, but high alloy and stainless steels seem to win at basically every application apart from cost and ease of workability compared with, say, 1095. I am a complete amateur, but I keep reading about this and not seeing how 1095 wins in any other sense. I’m not knocking it — it works and it has those advantages. But going to work in a swamp or something, I just have never understood why I wouldn’t want stainless.

Tool steels are tougher, easier to sharpen, in my experience. I love carbon steel. Rarely do I choose a stainless, only time I went out of my way to carry stainless was on the most humid days of the year. 1095 to M4 and 3V, great stuff. Never have to baby it. Wouldn't feel the same about, say, 20CV

There are exceptions, like the ultra-hard tool steel, Maxamet.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

Deleted.

 

[shane45-1911]

1095 and 440C, at a quick Google, seem to have exactly the same amount of carbon in them. (?)

It is not carbon that determines whether a knife is stainless or not - it is the chromium content.

And it is the sum of all the other elements that gives the steel its characteristics and attributes. 1095 is definitely not the same as 440C.

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

It is not carbon that determines whether a knife is stainless or not - it is the chromium content.

Right, but I thought you were talking toughness. In other words, seems like 440C has equivalent toughness plus stainlessness.

 

[shane45-1911]

Right, but I thought you were talking toughness. In other words, seems like 440C has equivalent toughness plus stainlessness.

1095 has better toughness (at proper HRC with quality heat treatment). 440C has better edge retention. Everything is a compromise.

Again, all other things being equal - I will ALWAYS choose a blade with "toughness" above all else, for outdoor hard use.

I know where you are going however, and concede that 440C is close to being the stainless equivalent of 1095.

 

[Hashishiin]

CTS-XHP has been described as a higher-hardness 440c by Spyderco themselves, I wonder if people make this equivalence in their head and realize how good something can be. Of course not equating the steels completely, but... I know we don't use it much, but the original name of S60V was 440V, I bet that change in name did something in terms of sales.

I wonder what CPM-1095 would be like.

 

[murat1983]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

 

[shane45-1911]

I wonder what CPM-1095 would be like.

Magical.

I am waiting for someone to make some.

 

[Hashishiin]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

Who made your 420HC knives, if I may ask? I'm just curious.

 

[MolokaiRider]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

I am also curious on the brand of dive knife you are referring to. Sounds like it may be not the real deal. 420hc has a ton of corrosion resistance, albeit not corrosion proof. 420j2 is also very resilient in regards to rusting.

 

[jbmonkey]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

Its probably not 420hc, it's 420j2 or a Chinese equivalent like 3cr13...probably labeled as 420....

most dive knives I've seen in a 420 type steel ain't 420hc or heat treated well.

 

[pvicenzi]

My steaks taste the same no matter what blade steel I cut them with. In fact, a lowly Opinel, with simple, soft steels, does the job better than most of my high-tech knives with high-tech steels.

 

[chalby]

Completely incorrect.

If you are doing a lot of serious chopping, especially with the chance of lateral strikes - nothing works better than 1095 (or 52100 or 5160) for toughness. All other things being equal, higher carbon steel will not chip or crack if you happen not to hit exactly perpendicular to what you are chopping..

Also, the nature of 1095 (and higher carbon steels in general) allows for a very sharp edge that is often times not achievable in stainless at the the same edge geometry and profile.

Even if I were working in a swamp, my choice of a hard-use knife will ALWAYS be higher carbon. It's not that hard to wipe it down at the end of the day. 40+ years of outdoor, all-weather use with 1095 in dozens of different models, I do not have a knife with a single spec of rust on it.

Are you just comparing 1095 to 440C or all stainless steels?

There are stainless steels that will perform just as well as 1095 if not better for toughness/chopping etc.

 

[dirc]

1095 has better toughness (at proper HRC with quality heat treatment). 440C has better edge retention. Everything is a compromise.

Again, all other things being equal - I will ALWAYS choose a blade with "toughness" above all else, for outdoor hard use.

I know where you are going however, and concede that 440C is close to being the stainless equivalent of 1095.

... you should read -> https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/06...ents-of-52100-o1-and-1095-how-much-toughness/
the graphs near the end are fairly clear - if you want tough stainless - you get aeb-l (or 420hc)
if you want tough non-stainless - you get 8670 (or 5160)

not much else comes close to those....
(my 1075 machete is probably up there but dont think it was tested)