440C - To Buy or Not to Buy? A steel snob's dilemma

I'm into 440C. I think it is often overlooked in favor of more recent steel formulae, but it's still good stuff. I didn't feel under-knifed when carrying a blade made of it.
 
440C is a very decent steel that's been around for quite a long while. When spending a lot of money on a knife, one has the tendency to look for a higher end or "super steel" (marketing term), but, like others have mentioned, the steel is only part of the package when deciding whether to buy a knife or not.

My first Shiro was "just" S30V, but I loved the knife, bought it, and have not been disappointed. On the other hand, I would not spend a lot on a knife with, say, 8Cr13MoV or VG10--perfectly fine in a Tenacious or Delica/Endura (all of which I have), but not in a more expensive knife. I think each of us probably has a tipping point regarding steel type and price point. The projected use of a blade factors into it as well. Still, for me, there's more to a knife than just the blade steel. I think this is what the OP was getting at.

BTW, I always find it disappointing when threads devolve into accusations and calling others liars. I don't know why we can't disagree and maintain a civil discourse.
 
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Thanks. It was my riff on the Randall and Bill Moran knife themes which have obvious influence from the old Air Force survival knife. I refer to any knife like that with the medium blade and the "Coke bottle" handle as an "aviator" model
Riz! said:
Thats beautiful!
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Cobalt said:
Gaston, you keep on mentioning this test. Although I like 440C, I don't believe you and once again I would like you to provide this test on here or stop spewing your lies. The reason why I have a problem with this is because of the time frame. I was here in 1998(also the original KF and recKnives). Both cpm3V and INFI were very new and almost impossible to get and there is no way that anyone had been given test mules of either steel and certainly not INFI. But maybe I am wrong so either put up this test or stop spreading lies. Very simple.
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The test exists, and I have been trying for years to find the relevant issues, or contact anyone who can help. I've narrowed down the publication to "Tactical Knives" and the timeframe to 1998-1999: bi-monthly I think, so a spread of only 12 issues... I have good reasons to think it could not have been after 1999, and this matches the first two CPM steels introduction date. This was the absolute first time Crucible's powder steel was tested for edge retention anywhere in public: No knives existed at the time that were available in those steels. It was one of the very striking features of that test, along with the purpose-built test mules for all the steels, a feat I have yet to see repeated... If anyone knows how to contact editor Steven J Dick I would be very grateful, as it certainly is not easy...

This is 16-17 years old on an internationally distributed knife magazine...: I swear Howard Carter had an easier time than this...

Gaston
 
Cobalt, I too want to see this test. I also want to see the profiles and geometry of each blade. Also Ide like to know the data on how the steels were heat treated and the dfferent types of tests.

We all know there is more than one way to define "edge holding". Im really thinkng toughness and abrasion resistance. 440C hardened really hard, like 62, would probably hold its edge better than a softer run 3V when cutting abrasive materials like cardboard. But chop seasoned oak and I am pretty sure youde chip the heck out of the 440C and the 3V would see no chipping, maybe just a little deformation like a flat or a roll that culd easily be sharpened out on a strop or a fine stone. Without the actual test specs, data and results I ignore posts like his. It could be a legit test that did happen but just a "there was a test once" reference doesnt provide any true useable info.

I am not knocking Gaston, just stating a basic fact about scientific experiments.

If you hardened
 
Gaston444 said:
The test exists, and I have been trying for years to find the relevant issues, or contact anyone who can help. I've narrowed down the publication to "Tactical Knives" and the timeframe to 1998-1999: bi-monthly I think, so a spread of only 12 issues... I have good reasons to think it could not have been after 1999, and this matches the first two CPM steels introduction date. This was the absolute first time Crucible's powder steel was tested for edge retention anywhere in public: No knives existed at the time that were available in those steels. It was one of the very striking features of that test, along with the purpose-built test mules for all the steels, a feat I have yet to see repeated... If anyone knows how to contact editor Steven J Dick I would be very grateful, as it certainly is not easy...

This is 16-17 years old on an internationally distributed knife magazine...: I swear Howard Carter had an easier time than this...

Gaston
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Gaston, I use to get that magazine in the 90's. I was also on this forum in 98-99 as well as Knifeforums and Recknives during that time. I can tell you that any test like that would have warranted a huge thread with all kinds of fighting for sure. Not one of those forums ever had any large thread like that. Our community back then was very small and the forum was small. Everyone knew everyone else. I will restate, I remember knifemakers having an issue getting 3v. In fact Kit Carson, who was making me a huge stellite knife, was having some issues sourcing many sizes in 3V for something I wanted. Now lets move on to INFI. At that time, Busse released INFI to only one knife maker to make a custom knife. I can't remember who now. They actually forged an INFI custom knife. No one else had INFI, so that is the other part of your story that makes me call BS on the whole thing. I know for fact, Busse did not release INFI to be made for anyone at that time except one guy.

Also, Gaston, you keep stating 440C for your Randall, but I remember them using 440b for their stainless not c. But then again, they may have used both.

Riz! said:
Cobalt, I too want to see this test. I also want to see the profiles and geometry of each blade. Also Ide like to know the data on how the steels were heat treated and the dfferent types of tests.


We all know there is more than one way to define "edge holding". Im really thinkng toughness and abrasion resistance. 440C hardened really hard, like 62, would probably hold its edge better than a softer run 3V when cutting abrasive materials like cardboard. But chop seasoned oak and I am pretty sure youde chip the heck out of the 440C and the 3V would see no chipping, maybe just a little deformation like a flat or a roll that culd easily be sharpened out on a strop or a fine stone. Without the actual test specs, data and results I ignore posts like his. It could be a legit test that did happen but just a "there was a test once" reference doesnt provide any true useable info.


I am not knocking Gaston, just stating a basic fact about scientific experiments.


If you hardened
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The difference in toughness between cpm3v and 440c is astronomical. They are not even close in toughness. So the only measure that 440C would beat 3v would be in corrosion resistance. For 440C to have any real toughness it would have to be Rc'd down to 55-56, and at that hardness it would not hold an edge for beans. 440C at 57-58 is great, maybe even 59, but it is not a tough steel at that Rc.
 
Seen a lot of reference to $300 ranged knives, unless I am missing something this Nomad is running in the $150ish range online. That's inline with many Entrek offerings and Ennis does a great job on his 440C but only wished he offered up some alternative grinds such as a flat grind instead of the hollow grinds. I'm very please with my use of 440C knives but as pointed out by many it will lack the toughness.
 
My least favorite steel. I will not use or carry knives in this steel. There are far too many knives out there made in steels I actually like for me to waste time on this.

It is brittle at thin, lazer type stuff and those carbides that give that decent abrasive wear don't last. It is corrosion resistant but that means nothing to me. Believe it or not I can get along fine with "lesser" wear resistant steels like Aus6, 12C, and even 440A. Those steels are tougher at the edge where it counts.

Mostly though I prefer mostly non stainless alloys. 3V is one of my favorites. 52100, O-1, W2, etc. can make me happy as well. VG10, CPM 154, and the powder vanadium stainless steels get my vote when I want a stainless knife which isn't often.

joe
 
scout1sg said:
Seen a lot of reference to $300 ranged knives, unless I am missing something this Nomad is running in the $150ish range online. That's inline with many Entrek offerings and Ennis does a great job on his 440C but only wished he offered up some alternative grinds such as a flat grind instead of the hollow grinds. I'm very please with my use of 440C knives but as pointed out by many it will lack the toughness.
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300 was stated by me because I would easily spend $300 on the tops knife if it was 3V
 
The Mastiff said:
My least favorite steel. I will not use or carry knives in this steel. There are far too many knives out there made in steels I actually like for me to waste time on this.

It is brittle at thin, lazer type stuff and those carbides that give that decent abrasive wear don't last. It is corrosion resistant but that means nothing to me. Believe it or not I can get along fine with "lesser" wear resistant steels like Aus6, 12C, and even 440A. Those steels are tougher at the edge where it counts.

Mostly though I prefer mostly non stainless alloys. 3V is one of my favorites. 52100, O-1, W2, etc. can make me happy as well. VG10, CPM 154, and the powder vanadium stainless steels get my vote when I want a stainless knife which isn't often.

joe
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You mention Aus6 and 440A. I find very little information available about AUS6. Does anyone still use it?
 
Gaston444 said:
The test exists, and I have been trying for years to find the relevant issues, or contact anyone who can help. I've narrowed down the publication to "Tactical Knives" and the timeframe to 1998-1999: bi-monthly I think, so a spread of only 12 issues... I have good reasons to think it could not have been after 1999, and this matches the first two CPM steels introduction date. This was the absolute first time Crucible's powder steel was tested for edge retention anywhere in public: No knives existed at the time that were available in those steels. It was one of the very striking features of that test, along with the purpose-built test mules for all the steels, a feat I have yet to see repeated... If anyone knows how to contact editor Steven J Dick I would be very grateful, as it certainly is not easy...

This is 16-17 years old on an internationally distributed knife magazine...: I swear Howard Carter had an easier time than this...

Gaston
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Tactical knives was a rag. I read it off and on for years. It was filled with simple spelling and grammatical errors. Much worse were the many lapses of journalistic integrity (e.g. designer reviewing his own knife, reviews of prototypes not production models, and much much more.) They were also factually wrong.

Even if you find the article, it would prove nothing.
 
I've never seen anyone in the woods or on a job site say "aw shucks, I can't build a fire or prep my food. I only brought 440c".

99.9% of users would never be able to tell you the steel in their knives if it wasn't printed on the blade. Just buy the knife!!
 
But it DID review the RAZR knife by Johnny Lighting. That has to count for something. :D
brownshoe said:
Tactical knives was a rag. I read it off and on for years. It was filled with simple spelling and grammatical errors. Much worse were the many lapses of journalistic integrity (e.g. designer reviewing his own knife, reviews of prototypes not production models, and much much more.) They were also factually wrong.

Even if you find the article, it would prove nothing.
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brownshoe said:
Tactical knives was a rag. I read it off and on for years. It was filled with simple spelling and grammatical errors. Much worse were the many lapses of journalistic integrity (e.g. designer reviewing his own knife, reviews of prototypes not production models, and much much more.) They were also factually wrong.

Even if you find the article, it would prove nothing.
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My first ever write up in a Rag was Tactical Knives, on my culinary knives. Fall of 98 I think?
The Rag is what it is, so to speak and there are plenty of knife makers, Heat Treaters and even knife editorialst's that can' t spell for SHITE!:D Myself included! :p That doesn't mean they/we don't know what they are talking about.

On the OT, being from the late 1950's I believe, I look at the 440 A, B, C, steels as the Grand Daddys of most of your Stainless Culinary steels that we use today.

Depending on the application and of course the Heat Treatment. They can work excellently! Are there better steels? better for what?

As LukeTheSpook points out, never seen anyone go, Ah Shucks! I only have a 440C knife!
 


440C and fantastic. Shirogorov seems to do a great job heat treating all their steels. This one takes a crazy sharp edge and holds it...and yes, it gets used! :D
 
LukeTheSpook said:
I've never seen anyone in the woods or on a job site say "aw shucks, I can't build a fire or prep my food. I only brought 440c".

99.9% of users would never be able to tell you the steel in their knives if it wasn't printed on the blade. Just buy the knife!!
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I did buy it last night. And I actually laughed when I read your comments above. I still have some of my old knives from when I first started collecting blades. I thought about how much I used my Buck special and never even blinked about what kind of steel it was made from. Gents I do think I have come full circle.
 
The GREAT granddaddy of current steels used for knives was arguably AEB-L. The problem was that you couldn't easily get it in knife sized thicknesses for a long time.
Rhinoknives1 said:
My first ever write up in a Rag was Tactical Knives, on my culinary knives. Fall of 98 I think?
The Rag is what it is, so to speak and there are plenty of knife makers, Heat Treaters and even knife editorialst's that can' t spell for SHITE!:D Myself included! :p That doesn't mean they/we don't know what they are talking about.

On the OT, being from the late 1950's I believe, I look at the 440 A, B, C, steels as the Grand Daddys of most of your Stainless Culinary steels that we use today.

Depending on the application and of course the Heat Treatment. They can work excellently! Are there better steels? better for what?

As LukeTheSpook points out, never seen anyone go, Ah Shucks! I only have a 440C knife!
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The only US made 440c I'd buy is from Entrek and Esee.

There is nothing wrong with 440c, but 154cm is a close comparison and tougher.
 
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I have seen a Buck 110 in what I assume was 420HC take a ridiculously sharp edge to the point where is would cleave a folded Rizla cigarette paper free standing on its end. It just won't hold it for very long compared to some other steels.
Riz! said:
I did buy it last night. And I actually laughed when I read your comments above. I still have some of my old knives from when I first started collecting blades. I thought about how much I used my Buck special and never even blinked about what kind of steel it was made from. Gents I do think I have come full circle.
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