440C - To Buy or Not to Buy? A steel snob's dilemma

[shinyedges]

To everyone else reading this, Gaston is a troll whose primary purpose is to spread nonsense and misinformation. Do not believe him, or anything he says because it is garbage misinformation.

Gaston, you say "the most serious steel test you've ever seen" was in this magazine, which when challenged to come up with this magazine test, all you can say is:



I've seen you make this claim multiple times before when challenged. So, let me see if I have this right. A test that you consider "the most serious steel test you've ever seen", and you don't even have a copy? Not even a scanned page or two from this 17 or 18 year old magazine? Nothing? All you know is some magazine article* way back when somehow shows an inferior steel somehow beating absolutely superior steels in some serious head-to-head contest? Really? Not one page, or even the exact title of the article? You can't even tell us what issue it was in? Anyone else find that odd? Anybody? "The most serious steel test", and NO ONE can locate this test, this article, or issue of this magazine?

That to me says you know you're lying, or else you know the test you claim to have seen was falsified, and you're attempting to obfuscate that fact behind the misdirection of "Well, it was in this one magazine, way back when, and I don't know exactly what issue, I don't know what the article was called, and somehow can't find so much as a scan anywhere at all on the Internet." I can't speak for others, but this sad attempt at spouting garbage misinformation, and when challenged, claiming that you can't find the source of your garbage misinformation, is disingenuous at best.

People need to be calling you out every single time you start this spin machine up, because you've mentioned this several times before and it's just played out at this point. There are people who are genuinely looking for information, who will read your posts, and then go parrot that garbage misinformation elsewhere.

Find the exact article, so that test can be properly evaluated, or stop using it in an attempt to spread this trash. Please and thank you.





*Because certainly magazine articles would never be skewed to sell a particular product, or to mislead the reader into seeing things the editor's way. Noooo, of course not.

+1

Gaston is indeed spreading horse manure as information. Actually it is appalling that he even believes what he says

 

[Gaston444]

The funniest part is that he thinks his randall is 440c. ROTFLMAO

"The Randall shop is currently using 440B and 440C stainless, on most knives, except the smaller stainless models in 3/16 blade stock, which are made of ATS34. Randall forges the 440 blades as always. A high carbon 440B is about the same as a low carbon 440C, so depending on the carbon content of the order analysis, it may be either one of them."

- Gary Randall, 2/09

ROTFLMAO indeed. But I'm sure that will not hurt your sense of credibility any.

Gaston

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

I would love to see that. I wonder if it is that ozzie bowie company, lol. If it is I would not trust it

What lead you to believe that 440C can not be differentially heat treated, can you enlighten me?

I am not a knifemaker, neither master of metallurgy, but many fellow forumites are......If you are one of these guys Cobalt and can clarify yourself why 440C blade can not be heat treated differentially, than I will be more than happy to read about that further.....

However, if you are not, than please wait for possible answer from specialists/knifemakers who may answer this question in depth.....

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

To everyone else reading this, Gaston is a troll whose primary purpose is to spread nonsense and misinformation. Do not believe him, or anything he says because it is garbage misinformation.

Gaston, you say "the most serious steel test you've ever seen" was in this magazine, which when challenged to come up with this magazine test, all you can say is:



I've seen you make this claim multiple times before when challenged. So, let me see if I have this right. A test that you consider "the most serious steel test you've ever seen", and you don't even have a copy? Not even a scanned page or two from this 17 or 18 year old magazine? Nothing? All you know is some magazine article* way back when somehow shows an inferior steel somehow beating absolutely superior steels in some serious head-to-head contest? Really? Not one page, or even the exact title of the article? You can't even tell us what issue it was in? Anyone else find that odd? Anybody? "The most serious steel test", and NO ONE can locate this test, this article, or issue of this magazine?

That to me says you know you're lying, or else you know the test you claim to have seen was falsified, and you're attempting to obfuscate that fact behind the misdirection of "Well, it was in this one magazine, way back when, and I don't know exactly what issue, I don't know what the article was called, and somehow can't find so much as a scan anywhere at all on the Internet." I can't speak for others, but this sad attempt at spouting garbage misinformation, and when challenged, claiming that you can't find the source of your garbage misinformation, is disingenuous at best.

People need to be calling you out every single time you start this spin machine up, because you've mentioned this several times before and it's just played out at this point. There are people who are genuinely looking for information, who will read your posts, and then go parrot that garbage misinformation elsewhere.

Find the exact article, so that test can be properly evaluated, or stop using it in an attempt to spread this trash. Please and thank you.





*Because certainly magazine articles would never be skewed to sell a particular product, or to mislead the reader into seeing things the editor's way. Noooo, of course not.

Quiet

Please refrain from insulting other forumites calling them trolls, just because they may have different opinion than yours. Gaston only mentioned test he intercepted on magazine and put it out there, there is no reason whatsoever calling him a troll for that.. Back to topic please,don't discuss forumites, discuss 440C

 

[Quiet]

Quiet

Please refrain from insulting other forumites calling them trolls, just because they may have different opinion than yours. Gaston only mentioned test he intercepted on magazine and put it out there, there is no reason whatsoever calling him a troll for that.. Back to topic please,don't discuss forumites, discuss 440C

Please mind your own business, thanks. Gaston is here, stating incorrect information as facts...when they aren't. That you don't realize how incorrect Gaston's claims are, is a result of how little you know about steels.

[Edited for clarity]

 

[Quiet]

On topic post: OP, if you were looking for a knife that was pleasing to you in all respects, but was made of 440C, why not buy it? As long as it wasn't outrageously priced, you've nothing to lose.

 

[Thomas Linton]

There is information on the web about respected makers doing differential heat-treat of 440C. It is described as being a PITA. Does not sound like something a production maker would want to use.

 

[craytab]

Quiet

Please refrain from insulting other forumites calling them trolls, just because they may have different opinion than yours. Gaston only mentioned test he intercepted on magazine and put it out there, there is no reason whatsoever calling him a troll for that.. Back to topic please,don't discuss forumites, discuss 440C

Careful who you defend. Gaston has been known to troll manufacturer subforums here including becker, CRK, Busse, Survive!, and CPK. Some of the best in the business. He has also been claiming 440c superiority for years and using this unknown source as evidence. Even when people who know a ton more information on the subject try to set him straight, he does not listen and rather keeps spreading misinformation. See The Mastiff's post above for clarification. It is well known that randall mostly uses 440b. Simple facts he gets wrong. Again, careful who you defend. The topic turns to a poster when said poster is the source of misinformation constantly.

 

[The Mastiff]

seriousbladeno1 stated:

Q

uiet

Please refrain from insulting other forumites calling them trolls, just because they may have different opinion than yours. Gaston only mentioned test he intercepted on magazine and put it out there, there is no reason whatsoever calling him a troll for that.. Back to topic please,don't discuss forumites, discuss 440C

They're correct. He not only has posted lots of false information but has done a bunch of plain old fashioned trolling type arguing. Check some of his old arguments over the last two years. Last time I talked with him about this was in the Spyderco forum here at BF. I even suggested to him the correct article information he referred to and gave it's location. It was a 2010 or so article using mules made by Dozier and it was a different steel he uses as his argument. He knows this yet refuses to accept being wrong. He can't admit being incorrect for whatever reason. It's just his personality. He'd rather argue and get into trolling than admit having been wrong. He even inferred it was a conspiracy.

 

[Bob W]

CRKT was doing a lot with AUS6, even AUS4 if I recall correctly.
I don't think it's very good steel, but I've purchased a couple for the novelty of the designs.

I can get by with AUS8, but really AUS10 is a big improvement for what should only be pennies more.

Wouldn't A10 put more wear on dies and require more belt wear and time for grinding?

I assume it would, but how much difference would it make to the cost of the knife? That's a good question for someone involved with knife manufacturing.
Given the difference in hardness between AUS8 and AUS10, what is the per-blade difference in manufacturing cost?

 

[Lorien]

Careful who you defend. Gaston has been known to troll manufacturer subforums here including becker, CRK, Busse, Survive!, and CPK. Some of the best in the business.

yep- it's irritating and pointless.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The worst trolls don't just spread misinformation. They spread dissension. I might as well close this thread, now that Gaston444 has trashed it.

His knowledge of steel is worthless, but his babbling will sink into new members consciousness, distorting their learning.

We are on the verge of removing another troll.

 

[Cobalt]

What lead you to believe that 440C can not be differentially heat treated, can you enlighten me?

I am not a knifemaker, neither master of metallurgy, but many fellow forumites are......If you are one of these guys Cobalt and can clarify yourself why 440C blade can not be heat treated differentially, than I will be more than happy to read about that further.....

However, if you are not, than please wait for possible answer from specialists/knifemakers who may answer this question in depth.....

Well, I will answer you when you answer me. I asked if it is that ozzie bowie company? well is it?

My comment never intended to say whether it can or cannot be done, just wondering if you are bringing up that one company from down unda, lol.

 

[Cobalt]

"The Randall shop is currently using 440B and 440C stainless, on most knives, except the smaller stainless models in 3/16 blade stock, which are made of ATS34. Randall forges the 440 blades as always. A high carbon 440B is about the same as a low carbon 440C, so depending on the carbon content of the order analysis, it may be either one of them."

- Gary Randall, 2/09

ROTFLMAO indeed. But I'm sure that will not hurt your sense of credibility any.

Gaston

Very cryptic naming convention. So in other words, you have no idea which steel you have. Did you have yours tested? Lets place bets, I bet it's 440B. I had all my stainless Randalls tested. Both were 440B. One was O1. Lets get it tested.

 

[afishhunter]

Just wait until there's a knife with 440A or 420HC you like ...

 

[bodog]

What lead you to believe that 440C can not be differentially heat treated, can you enlighten me?

I am not a knifemaker, neither master of metallurgy, but many fellow forumites are......If you are one of these guys Cobalt and can clarify yourself why 440C blade can not be heat treated differentially, than I will be more than happy to read about that further.....

However, if you are not, than please wait for possible answer from specialists/knifemakers who may answer this question in depth.....

It's probably possible. I've seen forged 3V, M390, etc. and that's usually considered crazy. I think the issue is that carbon steels that you'd normally see differentially hardened get worked at much lower temperatures with a bigger range of temperatures that lead to the finished blade being acceptable. When you start talking about high alloy steels the temperatures needed to produce an acceptable product are much higher and with a much narrower range.

With a lot of carbon steels you can simply do the normal heat treatment with a bunch of charcoal in a backyard pit, quench in old cooking oil, and then temper in your kitchen oven, then keeping the edge relatively cool, torch the spine and let it air cool which makes it softer. There's no way you could do that with something like 440C. You need precise temperatures and if you start screwing around like that then it'll probably ruin the entire blade unless you go WAAYY out of your way to not over or under heat the edge that's less than one inch away from what you're trying to soften.

Or I could be way off. No one else is answering your question so I thought I'd give it a try.

 

[Riz!]

LOL. I already have that... Got a steal on a Gerber Strongarm and wanted to see what all the hype was about. Havent really used it. The sheath is bangin though. It was bought for an experiment that I never got around to doing. I am actually thinking of doing an "Old School" steel shootout. Maybe the Gerber strongarm 420 vs the TOPs 440c vs my old Buck Special! Maybe I will throw in an SOG Seal Knife too.

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Well, I will answer you when you answer me. I asked if it is that ozzie bowie company? well is it?

My comment never intended to say whether it can or cannot be done, just wondering if you are bringing up that one company from down unda, lol.

Cobalt, I will not prefer to bring the name the company you mentioned into discussion, for simple reason of preventing any arguments here that may lead to closure of this quite interesting thread.

Rather we shall focus on topic and wait for proffesional explanation in this case - if 440C can or can not be differentially heat treated. As one of the the comments above explain, it is difficult and very precise process, however it seem to be possible to achieve with correct procedure requiring more than HT of usuall carbon steels

 

[KingMC]

Well, I will answer you when you answer me. I asked if it is that ozzie bowie company? well is it?

My comment never intended to say whether it can or cannot be done, just wondering if you are bringing up that one company from down unda, lol.

Yes, according to DUK's website, they have a 'double heat treat' with the spine being a different hardness than the edge, on 440C steel. I'm not buying any of it, considering their questionable business tactics, but I'm not buying their knives so it really doesn't make that much difference.

Seriousblade is a big proponent of DUK and their knives if you've seen his past threads started here.

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt, I will not prefer to bring the name the company you mentioned into discussion, for simple reason of preventing any arguments here that may lead to closure of this quite interesting thread.

Rather we shall focus on topic and wait for proffesional explanation in this case - if 440C can or can not be differentially heat treated. As one of the the comments above explain, it is difficult and very precise process, however it seem to be possible to achieve with correct procedure requiring more than HT of usuall carbon steels

It does matter because that is where you got your information and why you are asking the question. I see no problem with it. There should be no reason for an argument because of this and I certainly wasn't trying to start one. According to Down Under knives, their 440C is differentially tempered. According to an article on on Blade Magazine from Sept 2010(see Gaston, how I actually reference the correct article in the magazine ) their 440C is tempered to Rc=45/46 and at the edge Rc=58/59. This being the case, it is apparent that it can be done. But how difficult is it? how expensive is it to do this process time wise? are the questions I would ask.

http://www.downunderknives.com/files/file/Outback_Bowie.pdf