440C - To Buy or Not to Buy? A steel snob's dilemma

Seriousbladeno1 said:
To the OP'S primary question

There will always be a snobery related to steels as to everything else... Steel junkies will always be hooked up to the latest, most expensive steels that proclaim to have best possible performance of these days....

However, there will also be a tons of guys who are not willing to pay sky high money and prefer to stick with proven premium steels,that has been tested and that 440C righteously became....

It's been mentioned widely and quite often that this steel is surely not the one to be underestimated and depend on HT this steel can reach very high scores even against new super steels that could be number of times more expensive per same unit.....

Does anyone need to feel he /she have inferior knife, because it's been made out of older, cheaper steel? That is entirely up to each individual.... There are people who feel like kings in 30 years old Lincoln limousine and there are those, who would feel insecure being driven by 1,5 years old Maybach and feel like that car have been outdated...

Does that mean the old Lincoln limo is best car today? No it doesn't, is it a bad car? I don't think so, because it have been once on the top of the richest people list car,,,,,

Same apply to other example with Maybach is it best car today? Probably one of the best for certain purpose,,, is it outdated and something to be worried about? Could snobery affect someone to not buy it? Yes of course, there are individuals like that and always will be... ...
Click to expand...

Lets drink!!!


ScotchFBM2.jpg
 
It is all relative. From a trusted maker 440c can be just fine. From a garbage banned company like DUK for $200+ I don't think their quote 440c unquote is a value at all. Throw in a couple 20s and you can get a big hunk of battle grade SR101 from a quality company. No need to dress this up with imaginative analogies.

Cheers!
 
Riz! said:
Would you buy your ideal knife if the steel wasnt your ideal steel? Also, how many folks like and use 440C without issues?

Riz
Click to expand...

It depends. If the knife comes from a company with a good reputation and heat treatment, the answer might be yes.

Oh, I like good quality 440C. I have a 440A that is not the greatest.
 
Such an easily heated discussion. I think people need to do their own research to determine if a said Steel is good for their use. When I offer a word of advice it's based off my experience with the steel that is being asked about. I have had zero problems with 440C. I am fully aware of its capabilities and as such, do not expect more than what it's capable of, I.E. comparing it to a higher end Steel.
440C (assuming heat treat is done properly) is a great mid range Steel that offers a little of everything, tough, ease of sharpening, decent edge holding etc.
Also not to be confused with 440 A,B Steel. This is a whole other can of worms!
 
Cobalt said:
Very cryptic naming convention. So in other words, you have no idea which steel you have. Did you have yours tested? Lets place bets, I bet it's 440B. I had all my stainless Randalls tested. Both were 440B. One was O1. Lets get it tested.
Click to expand...

You implied I was ignorant to think Randall used 440C (ROTFLMAO, remember...), and I yet have a 02/09 Gary Randall quote saying they use 440B or 440C indifferently, depending on batches...

You could admit you were proven wrong...

It's not like the difference between B and C would show up in use... If Randall doesn't care, why should we?

Gaston
 
I think that the bad rap that 44C gets comes from the flea market knives stamped "440 China Stainless" and not actual 440C from a name brand. Most regular people's pocket knives are 440C and 420HC. They are looked down on by steel snobs but do you really think brands like Case, Buck, Gerber, Schrade and many others would still be around if the steel they all used was junk? I think not.
 
440C was a glamorous designer steel at one time. Given that we're talking steel and knives here (and not computers or smart phones) I don't think it's any less good now.
 
Gaston444 said:
You implied I was ignorant to think Randall used 440C (ROTFLMAO, remember...), and I yet have a 02/09 Gary Randall quote saying they use 440B or 440C indifferently, depending on batches...

You could admit you were proven wrong...

It's not like the difference between B and C would show up in use... If Randall doesn't care, why should we?

Gaston
Click to expand...

Think about this Gaston, you troll many different forums. I'll admit I was wrong about their 100% use of 440B when you admit you are wrong when you claim that your blade is 440C. You have no idea what steel you have. You claim 440C, I say 440B, because I bet the majority of their steel is 440B when it is stainless. There are tons of threads on this forum about Randall steel and the consensus from others who have talked to Randall over the years is that their stainless is typically 440B. There is a lower chance of your steel being C than it is B. But instead of blowing your usual hot air with bologna why don't you get your knives tested like I do. You don't think the difference between 440B and 440C will be noticeable? I beg to differ and that was never the point, quit making excuses. " If Randall doesn't care why should we? " seriously? Maybe Randall should change their site to say "440 whatever, cuz we don't care"
 
I've read that Randall used ATS34 at one time...Gaston's quote is not reliable, since he's known to quote articles that do not exist. Randall does not say what stainless they use, but they readily say O1 is their non-stainless. Usually that means a company will change the steel type depending upon things they consider proprietary. From their current site:

01 carbon tool steel or Stainless – Should I order my knife with a stainless steel blade or carbon tool steel blade?

That’s one of the most common questions we get. We feel that high carbon tool steel holds a better edge by about 10 percent and it’s much easier to hone. Stainless, however, is more resistant to corrosion and staining, so it’s generally the better choice for use in humid or saltwater conditions. Consider how frequently you’ll use and hone your knife–and where you’ll use it–then decide which material is best for you.
 
OP. I'm strongly considering the same knife your interested in. I've have good performance out of my Boker apparo in 440C. When I get mine I'll take it out and thrash on it (within reason) and let you know how it goes if you haven't already purchased one.
 
boy&hisdogs said:
I think that the bad rap that 44C gets comes from the flea market knives stamped "440 China Stainless" and not actual 440C from a name brand.

Most regular people's pocket knives are 440C and 420HC. They are looked down on by steel snobs but do you really think brands like Case, Buck, Gerber, Schrade and many others would still be around if the steel they all used was junk? I think not.
Click to expand...

Maybe most "regular people" who frequent BF. Most people buy that "440" stuff - if it claims even that much. The vast bulk of the knives that I sharpen for friends and neighbors are made of Mystery Steel.
 
Gaston444 said:
You implied I was ignorant to think Randall used 440C (ROTFLMAO, remember...), and I yet have a 02/09 Gary Randall quote saying they use 440B or 440C indifferently, depending on batches...

You could admit you were proven wrong...

It's not like the difference between B and C would show up in use... If Randall doesn't care, why should we?

Gaston
Click to expand...

If you're leaning on that one quote then you're likely incorrect. That quote simply implied that if he got a batch of higher than normal carbon content 440B then it'd essentially be the same as a lower than normal carbon content 440C. That's why I say stick to quality steels with tight specs. The only thing that quote said was that the tolerances of both steels are loose enough to overlap each other on occasion. And what I get from that is that the maker can never really nail the heat treatment because with those steels he can never really peg down what the ingredients are and therefore will never be able to obtain what might be most crucial to a quality blade, the heat treatment.


Other than that, many knives can perform. Whether or not they perform optimally is another question. A lot of makers can mask shitty steel, shitty geometry, and a shitty heat treatment. Doesn't matter which maker. Just because randall knives were good way back when not many others were making that kind of knife doesn't mean that what they were doing back then is the best now. They've never really changed and people keep buying them and throwing them in a closet or on a shelf. That's cool, they're collectables. But don't go saying that what they're doing is going to be as good as what someone is doing now with some of these steels.

How about this. Take a randall in 440B or 01. Do a direct comparison with a similar knife made of 3V or M4 or Vanadis 4E or Vanadis 10 or Elmax or M390 or 10V. I'll bet you money that all of these steels will perform better than O1 or 440B given the same tasks, especially if it was heat treated by a legit guy. I'll bet that from the ground up these steels will perform better. From chemical analysis at the foundry to the finished knife, these newer steels will be more reliable and function better. It's up to the maker and the user to pick the right steel for the job, sure, but in this day and age 440B/C or O1 is rarely it.
 
bodog said:
If you're leaning on that one quote then you're likely incorrect. That quote simply implied that if he got a batch of higher than normal carbon content 440B then it'd essentially be the same as a lower than normal carbon content 440C. That's why I say stick to quality steels with tight specs. The only thing that quote said was that the tolerances of both steels are loose enough to overlap each other on occasion. And what I get from that is that the maker can never really nail the heat treatment because with those steels he can never really peg down what the ingredients are and therefore will never be able to obtain what might be most crucial to a quality blade, the heat treatment.


Other than that, many knives can perform. Whether or not they perform optimally is another question. A lot of makers can mask shitty steel, shitty geometry, and a shitty heat treatment. Doesn't matter which maker. Just because randall knives were good way back when not many others were making that kind of knife doesn't mean that what they were doing back then is the best now. They've never really changed and people keep buying them and throwing them in a closet or on a shelf. That's cool, they're collectables. But don't go saying that what they're doing is going to be as good as what someone is doing now with some of these steels.

How about this. Take a randall in 440B or 01. Do a direct comparison with a similar knife made of 3V or M4 or Vanadis 4E or Vanadis 10 or Elmax or M390 or 10V. I'll bet you money that all of these steels will perform better than O1 or 440B given the same tasks, especially if it was heat treated by a legit guy. I'll bet that from the ground up these steels will perform better. From chemical analysis at the foundry to the finished knife, these newer steels will be more reliable and function better. It's up to the maker and the user to pick the right steel for the job, sure, but in this day and age 440B/C or O1 is rarely it.
Click to expand...

All very true. What concerns me the most is that in this day and age there is no excuse for not getting a steel with the exact spec you want. If that is 440B, then there is no reason why a local mill can't provide that unless you are buying your steel from the open market from unknown sources(ie China), then anything goes. The fact that Randall doesn't know and according to gaston, doesn't care, is a big concern and would most likely be a deal breaker for me.
 
Riz! said:
Would you buy your ideal knife if the steel wasnt your ideal steel? Also, how many folks like and use 440C without issues?
Click to expand...

Hi.

My answer to this is yes.

I currently own just one folder in 440C, the Pohl Force Bravo 1. No issues in my normal EDC tasks; to be picky, I can say it has not a fantastic edge retention when carving/whittling hard wood, meaning I need to sharpen it after a couple of days of prolonged use instead than every 10 days or so :).

I have a general comment on all this, I have probably said this before. As knives hobbyist and week-end hiker, I have a “recreational” use for my knives. I maybe perform something like an average of 50 cuts/day on different media, from food to wood, from mixed packaging materials (plastic, cardboard, tapes, etc.) to different types of cordages. I am not ashamed to say I am not able to appreciate significant differences between one steel and another with my current use during cutting :). Some differences I can instead appreciate while sharpening.

It’s my personal opinion that all these steel performances discussions, supposed or proven differences, etc. when it comes to recreational use of sporting knives (maybe excluding the real blade sports/competitions) are more an educated and civilized pass-time than anything else. A totally different ball game is when we talk about industrial tools and cutting/drilling processes, where steel performances “make it or brake it”, so to say (e.g. wear and tear of tools, efficiency, speed, costs, etc. are really making huge differences).

I think it boils down to everyone's needs/wants. If one, like me, is planning to use a knife for common EDC light utility tasks, hiking/camping, etc. I think the steel type doesn’t really matter so much, besides the basic question if going for a carbon steel or a stainless steel and the overall consideration of owns personal maintenance skills/time. If someone plans to chop nails, bolts, bricks, rods, high voltage electric cables, etc. (still recreational use of sporting knives :D) then it’s maybe a different thing.

If you like that knife, go for it! Don't worry too much about the steel, have fun and stay safe! :)
 
I own many knives in 440C (mostly by Böker) and I have yet to be disappointed by them. One is absolutely excellent in its intended use : the ChefYougo. I use it daily in the kitchen : it took a razor edge and keeps it for a surprisingly long time (a honing every two weeks, on average). 440C is said to have big carbides and that made me wary of putting a finer edge on these blades. However, I'm currently reprofiling them one after the other to 17,5° per side slightly convexed (the original bevel was around +/- 20°). They cut better (much better) and still outlast the life of rats. I would never turn away from a knife in 440C. Especially when done by a reputable maker or brand. Although Böker has gained some renown for its "misses", they do have remarkable "hits".
 
herisson said:
I own many knives in 440C (mostly by Böker) and I have yet to be disappointed by them. One is absolutely excellent in its intended use : the ChefYougo. I use it daily in the kitchen : it took a razor edge and keeps it for a surprisingly long time (a honing every two weeks, on average). 440C is said to have big carbides and that made me wary of putting a finer edge on these blades. However, I'm currently reprofiling them one after the other to 17,5° per side slightly convexed (the original bevel was around +/- 20°). They cut better (much better) and still outlast the life of rats. I would never turn away from a knife in 440C. Especially when done by a reputable maker or brand. Although Böker has gained some renown for its "misses", they do have remarkable "hits".
Click to expand...

good points. Agreed.

Here is a good link to some stuff about 440c

http://www.jayfisher.com/440C_Love_Hate.htm
 
Thomas Linton said:
It's a good link. As to the stuff . . . .
Click to expand...

Always take things with some salt. But one fact that some may miss is a quote in that link:

Why the bad rap from knifemakers, when this is the standard to which all other knife blade steels are typically compared? Here are some things to consider:

The maker may not be able to use 440C, because he is hand-forging knives, and 440C can not be hand-forged in an open-air forge.
Click to expand...

So, if you see forged in front of 440C it is likely not 440C, see Gaston, you may have learned something today. Nah, probably not. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top