5160 edge retention

Status
Not open for further replies.
I started a rather futile thread in support forum area but it fits this instance perfectly ;)
Ankerson said:
That or the people who seem to buy cheap tires and have to end up replacing them every year or so instead of buying good ones that will actually last.

Or people that will drive 10 Miles out of their way just to save a $1 when they burned more gas just getting there and back than they saved.

Sometime people's logic doesn't really make a lot of since, but you just can't talk to them. ;)
Click to expand...
 
Duane Sanders said:
I seen the pictures of your premium steels that you beat on your back deck into old molding. That was it right? Old moldy base board molding. You experienced a failure quickly on your back deck. I seen the pictures of the chipped out edge. Your obsession is super thin high hardness high toughness blades. You will tire some day and take what you learned. You won't get tough, thin and high hardness, not at least in the same blade.

YES, it is fun to talk about on the Internet. Don't mind me as I sit here and watch you evolve along your great quest.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was one post that showed how thin a knife could be and still perform when heat treated well. I took it to edge failure. That was a kitchen knife man, not my daily user. And a thin one at that. Read more and don't be afraid to go outside your comfort zone. Or don't and keep looking like a jackass. Doesn't matter to me. I find you entertaining. Like an idiot who doesn't know how to drive trying to race. You know a crash is coming.
 
My own experience with 5160 is this:

Edge retention wise it has been somewhere in the 440B range. Certainly adequate but no where near 440C, ATS34 and certainly no where near the cpm steels like S30V and above. I have been using 5160 for 20 years.

As for toughness, it is extreme in that department when kept below 58Rc or differentially tempered. I would put it on par with L6 and maybe even a little tougher. So is it a good steel? more than good. For me it is a hard use knife steel. I prefer more edge holding and better corrosion resistance in my folding knives, so it is not my choice there. However, if you plan to use your 110 for hard use then 5160 would be a good steel for that.

I have read a lot from knife makers who work with 5160 and one popular consensus is that it is an easy steel to work and HT. It is very forgiving. That means that it is hard to screw up. Hence why Ontario uses it in it's RTAK2 after tons of failures with the original 1095 RTAK that had inconsistent HT.

In the end I cannot fault anyone for using 5160 for any kind of knife. Certainly there are steels that do everything better, but the knives made from those steels are a lot more expensive. Bang for the buck 5160 is a great steel.

In a folder I would prefer stainless steels with 1% C or more. But that is my personal preference.
 
bodog said:
Wow, that was one post that showed how thin a knife could be and still perform when heat treated well. I took it to edge failure. That was a kitchen knife man, not my daily user. And a thin one at that. Read more and don't be afraid to go outside your comfort zone. Or don't and keep looking like a jackass. Doesn't matter to me. I find you entertaining. Like an idiot who doesn't know how to drive trying to race. You know a crash is coming.
Click to expand...

A knife without a purpose is not a knife.

Kitchen knives to cross grain baton. Working folders for cutting food. A heavy "bushcraft" blade to cut steaks. Lots of confused knife use. At least you got science on your side.

I've read here that a thin 60HRC 3V blade is tougher than a thicker lower HRC 5160 blade. After I used your science you got me scratching my head how that could be. Even read 3V isn't so good at edge retention.

As soon as I told you what I found in an objective search you and the others resort to name calling and personal attacks. Sir, I do not do that. So keep dreaming about pressing that triangle tad in the lower corner. If that's what you want to do go do it on yourself.

You keep saying you're right. You must have the numbers. Let's see the charpy values on 5160 vs 3V. I want to see how 5160 is less tough mid 50s to 3V at 60. You know, so show me. I'm just looking for the real information, not what someone thinks or says. Just being objective.

Good day.
 
From crucible (who knows much, much, much more about steels than you or me)

Charpy C-notch
4V
58 RC- 75 joules
60 RC- 68 joules
62 RC- 49 joules

3V
58 RC- 115 joules
60 RC- 95 joules
62 RC- 54 joules

10V
59 RC- 35 joules
61 RC- 31 joules

M4
62 RC- 43 joules

D2
60 RC- 31 joules

A2
60 RC- 56 joules


If you can find 5160 charpy c-notch testing results please feel free to share them. And keep in mind, all of these steels have enough carbide volume after hardening to resist abrasion and galling more than 5160. It's not just about toughness when speaking about edge retention. It's a combination of toughness, abrasive wear resistance, adhesive wear resistance, and hardness. There's more to it but I'd be speaking out of my ass if I went more into it. Feel free to learn something.

And charpy values only apply to fracture toughness. While high numbers are beneficial to an edge, apex fracture is only one thing that causes an edge to dull. If you want edge stability and edge retention you need to understand what happens that causes an edge to dull first. Your overwhelming addiction to charpy values means that while your knife may not fracture anywhere, it may roll. It may wear. It may bend. Understand why and you'll see what needs to be seen.

Thinking of steel like jello with fruit in it, toughness means that's the jello won't break apart due to a shock. Hardness (strength) means it doesn't bend or jiggle. Abrasive wear resistance means the chunks of fruit don't wear down and support the softer jello. Adhesive wear resistance means the jello doesn't separate easily. What you want is a jello mix where all parts work together. Some people want the fruit pieces to do all the work. Some people want the jello to do most of the work. Some people want to take a ball of jello and throw it at the wall and have it stick together. Some people want all of those things with one aspect a little more abundant than another. Some want a lot.

What were all trying to tell you is that 5160 only has one of those attributes, and that's the toughness. There are other steels with several making them a better piece of steel more capable of more things.

Now if you get into cost, ease of working, etc, then those are just more variables to consider. You seem to be focused on toughness and cost. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Others have other concerns, including higher edge retention and apex stability at a reasonable, rather than low, cost.

Hell, some guys want the brightest hamons. Some guys want the most contrasted pattern welded steels. Some want steels that are easiest to stick DLC coating on. Some people want steels that don't change on a molecular level when they get super hot. Some want steels that retain their shape when being pounded against other steels. If you figure out WHY you want what you want and can speak intelligently as to how the steel you're advocating serves your purposes, so much the better. Right now you have no idea about why you like what you like and if there's anything that could serve you better. We're saying there are extremely viable options that you can consider. You sticking your fingers in your ears and humming makes you look like an ignorant, stubborn child. If that's how you're going to be then may you find your short BF existence frustrating.
 
Last edited:
Thanks bodog I been to lazy to search.
bodog said:
From crucible (who knows much, much, much more about steels than you or me)

Charpy C-notch
4V
58 RC- 75 joules
60 RC- 68 joules
62 RC- 49 joules

3V
58 RC- 115 joules
60 RC- 95 joules
62 RC- 54 joules

10V
59 RC- 35 joules
61 RC- 31 joules

M4
62 RC- 43 joules

D2
60 RC- 31 joules

A2
60 RC- 56 joules


If you can find 5160 charpy c-notch testing results please feel free to share them.
Click to expand...
 
5160 is an excellent steel for certain applications. Is it the best choice for a folder? Absolutely not. The toughness Boris keeps touting is overkill on a knife of this size. Kinda like putting a jet engine in a model-T. It may go 200 MPH but you wouldn't be able to hold it on the road at much over 35 MPH. You just don't need that much toughness in a knife of that size.
Bore us wouldn't know a good knife if he cut himself with one. I'm OUT!
 
bodog said:
From crucible (who knows much, much, much more about steels than you or me)

Charpy C-notch
4V
58 RC- 75 joules
60 RC- 68 joules
62 RC- 49 joules

3V
58 RC- 115 joules
60 RC- 95 joules
62 RC- 54 joules

10V
59 RC- 35 joules
61 RC- 31 joules

M4
62 RC- 43 joules

D2
60 RC- 31 joules

A2
60 RC- 56 joules


If you can find 5160 charpy c-notch testing results please feel free to share them. And keep in mind, all of these steels have enough carbide volume after hardening to resist abrasion and galling more than 5160. It's not just about toughness when speaking about edge retention. It's a combination of toughness, abrasive wear resistance, adhesive wear resistance, and hardness. There's more to it but I'd be speaking out of my ass if I went more into it. Feel free to learn something.

And charpy values only apply to fracture toughness. While high numbers are beneficial to an edge, apex fracture is only one thing that causes an edge to dull. If you want edge stability and edge retention you need to understand what happens that causes an edge to dull first. Your overwhelming addiction to charpy values means that while your knife may not fracture anywhere, it may roll. It may wear. It may bend. Understand why and you'll see what needs to be seen.
Click to expand...

Best I could find was it will be right on the heels of S7 and will be in the 100-125 joules at 58HRC. Nothing solid, just what I read what someone thinks.

If the knife makers here roll as deep as they come off then they should be able to do the test and get it certified or have that information on hand. Most customers might blindly believe someone who makes knives but I still have better than 20/20 vision at my old age. I'm not going to believe it after seeing what I seen on 3V when it hits them high HRC numbers people strive to get along with toughness.

They probably know what will come out of testing 5160. It will end up showing its more tough or they know from in house testing there's no point in doing a charpy test because they exhibit better toughness at a known hardness.

I've already seen them numbers. What all of us need now is to see the 5160 numbers at the various hardness values. Until then we are all wrong because we are just knife enthusiasts talking about it. Someone has certified test numbers. It's just a matter of getting them. It's just back and forth until then.

If a steel exists at 60-62 HRC that is tougher than 5160 in the mid 50s that can be proven through certified tests then I believe all of us will be happy. I prefer thinner knives. 3/16" is thick to me. I'm not going to ignore that 5160 in the mid 50s for hardness with a thick non preferred blade is as tough as they come right now. My BOB knife is a "thick" 5160 knife and I did stuff to it that has broken other blades to make sure my BOB knife will take any unexpected needed use that might require extreme toughness. It passes. If I could dump some weight with a 5/32" blade I'd be so happy. 3V could be a candidate but right now I'm not seeing it doing anything better, even at the lower HRC.

I'd be happy to see 5160 at the higher hardness because a Buck 104 is less than half the weight of my current BOB knife. If the drop in toughness is not as drastic I would get one in a heart beat. Right now I want that one knife to be as tough as can be, so the weight stays for now.
 
Duane Sanders said:
Best I could find was it will be right on the heels of S7 and will be in the 100-125 joules at 58HRC. Nothing solid, just what I read what someone thinks.

If the knife makers here roll as deep as they come off then they should be able to do the test and get it certified or have that information on hand. Most customers might blindly believe someone who makes knives but I still have better than 20/20 vision at my old age. I'm not going to believe it after seeing what I seen on 3V when it hits them high HRC numbers people strive to get along with toughness.

They probably know what will come out of testing 5160. It will end up showing its more tough or they know from in house testing there's no point in doing a charpy test because they exhibit better toughness at a known hardness.

I've already seen them numbers. What all of us need now is to see the 5160 numbers at the various hardness values. Until then we are all wrong because we are just knife enthusiasts talking about it. Someone has certified test numbers. It's just a matter of getting them. It's just back and forth until then.

If a steel exists at 60-62 HRC that is tougher than 5160 in the mid 50s that can be proven through certified tests then I believe all of us will be happy. I prefer thinner knives. 3/16" is thick to me. I'm not going to ignore that 5160 in the mid 50s for hardness with a thick non preferred blade is as tough as they come right now. My BOB knife is a "thick" 5160 knife and I did stuff to it that has broken other blades to make sure my BOB knife will take any unexpected needed use that might require extreme toughness. It passes. If I could dump some weight with a 5/32" blade I'd be so happy. 3V could be a candidate but right now I'm not seeing it doing anything better, even at the lower HRC.

I'd be happy to see 5160 at the higher hardness because a Buck 104 is less than half the weight of my current BOB knife. If the drop in toughness is not as drastic I would get one in a heart beat. Right now I want that one knife to be as tough as can be, so the weight stays for now.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. At 58 RC 3V is as tough as 5160 if your numbers are anywhere near accurate. If you lower the Rockwell c numbers I'd bet 3V stays toe to toe at any hardness 5160 is capable of. Maybe a fully annealed piece of 3V would be slightly more brittle than a piece if fully annealed 5160.

3V also has better corrosion resistance, better abrasive wear resistance, and better adhesive wear resistance. If you want a knife that's ONLY capable of beating something up for the cheapest cost, ok. But don't act like others shouldn't want a knife thats capable of more.
 
Darrin Sanders said:
5160 is an excellent steel for certain applications. Is it the best choice for a folder? Absolutely not. The toughness Boris keeps touting is overkill on a knife of this size. Kinda like putting a jet engine in a model-T. It may go 200 MPH but you wouldn't be able to hold it on the road at much over 35 MPH. You just don't need that much toughness in a knife of that size.
Bore us wouldn't know a good knife if he cut himself with one. I'm OUT!
Click to expand...


Am I the only one keeping this on track?

I want to talk about knives.

Wanting a tough steel in a small folder makes as much sense as wanting a high edge retaining steel in a small folder. The golden ticket for the door you go through is what are you doing with the knife. You might want high edge retention and I might want a tough steel. I'm not cutting cardboard in my spare room. If I use a knife there is a purpose behind it so my needs are slightly different.

Thank you for what little actual knife information you did provide though. As little as it was it kinda helped.
 
The only advantages I've seen about 5160 is it's inexpensive and easy to machine. Which are desirable from production and business standpoints. A ot of people only look at price tags. All aspects being equal except steel, a knife made out of 3V rather than 5160 would be around 20% more. BFD. A user will recoup that cost over 3 years of use due to less maintenance.

Comparing 3V to 5160 is comparimg apples to oranges. 5160 is 1940s technology with some tweeks over time.
 
I told myself I wasn't coming back to this train wreck but I think this needs to be said. The reason you can't and wont find any Charpy figures for 5160 is because it is NOT a knife steel. 5160 is a spring steel. Steel companies don't waste time and money on tests that aren't relevant to their requirements. However, I think Kevin Cashen did some Charpy testing on 5160. I'll poke around and see what I come up with. I may even call Kevin, if anyone has Charpy figures for 5160 he'll have em.
 
Darrin Sanders said:
I told myself I wasn't coming back to this train wreck but I think this needs to be said. The reason you can't and wont find any Charpy figures for 5160 is because it is NOT a knife steel. 5160 is a spring steel. Steel companies don't waste time and money on tests that aren't relevant to their requirements. However, I think Kevin Cashen did some Charpy testing on 5160. I'll poke around and see what I come up with. I may even call Kevin, if anyone has Charpy figures for 5160 he'll have em.
Click to expand...

There are charpy values out there. For exactly what you just said, for the spring steel version and in the mid 40s the values are extremely high. They don't pertain to what we are talking about.

I'm going to assume at this time and we know what that does so take it easy. I'm assuming. I assume you haven't put a mid 50s hardness 5160 1/4" thick blade through some flat out abusive tests to see how tough it is. Getting one to break at that hardness is like saying you can break the leaf springs on a truck by going over the bumpiest road you can find as fast as you can. The hangers will break long before the spring will.

A mid 50s hardness 5160 blade will chop, baton, shave and carve wood all day long and part of the next day before it needs a touch up. Plenty of edge retention for outside the spare room cutting cardboard. Add in that toughness and it's pretty hard to beat.

What I've seen so far I might just go 5160 again in a slightly harder 104 that's half the weight if toughness doesn't drop too much.

If you can show me something at a higher hardness with better edge retention and better toughness then by all means do so. I hope you do!

That's all I'm asking. Thank you.
 
I bet this thread is getting locked soon. Darrin, hopefully you can share what Kevin Cashen says. If you get ahold of him can you see if adhesive wear resistance enhances abrasive wear resistance by supporting the carbides?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top