5160 edge retention

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Duane answer the question I asked earlier.

How many knife steels have you tried and compared personally?

You keep saying at the end of the day modern steels will be damaged and 420 and 5160 wont be... proof?

Your full of crap dude, 3v is tougher, more wear resistant and more corrosion resistant than 5160, and 420 is outdated and way below average in toughness AND wear resistance compared to ELMAX and several others.

What experience do you have with 3v or Elmax ? List the steels YOU personally have tried and compared to other steels.
Duane Sanders said:
I already know all that in the first paragraph. What the core group does not understand the same variables apply to their precious super(ior) steels. I make the observation they haven't used them enough to notice they should have a very different conclusion from someone else in the core. There's no way they all draw the same conclusion from different and varied uses. So they say the science applies equally to everyone with their choice this week while only the lowly 5160 experiences variables causing a different out come. They aren't smart enough to convince me this weeks steel will perform any or much better than what I use. They are just shilling one another's posts. Good old boys patting each other on the back. It fills that feel good void in their life. I go for hikes and go hunting for that fulfillment.

I've seen them steels that hold an edge forever under hard work. They sure don't dull but the pay off isn't worth it because you can never gain wear resistance without giving up toughness. You don't get tough without giving up some edge retaining wear resistance. The tougher steels like 5160 and at least Bucks 420HC will still have an edge at the end of the day you can fix for tomorrow instead of a still pretty sharp damaged one.

There is no I have a steel that's toughest and holds the best edge ever knife out there. You will give up one for the other.

The core here got mad in the other thread when I made it very clear I choose tough still has an edge to sharpen over still sharp damaged edges. 5160 can be brought back to a very smooth extremely tough edge fast with no damage to it. Wear resistant steels will never do that. I'm not talking about science either.

I will take a wild guess the core might be in a situation some day where they work hard and use a knife all day long. The pendulum will swing real quick to the tougher side after they make some observations. Being too tired to fix damaged edges after a hard days work will be the prime motivator.

All of these "custom" knives everyone seems to think are so prolific for knife users. Last time I seen a custom in the woods was a Loveless before the price was jacked up. If all these production knives were as poor as the core says they are then people who use knives would quickly abandon them. Their science can prove that one too.
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I think you are correct on this.

And Darrin, you are absolutely right. Custom or handmade is freaking amazing.
trevitrace said:
It didn't work when Daniel Winkler, another respected maker, chimed in during a Boris debacle regarding 80CrV2.

Something tells me that any info, regardless of how reputable the source, may be falling deaf on "Duane's" ears.
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shinyedges said:
Duane answer the question I asked earlier.

How many knife steels have you tried and compared personally?

You keep saying at the end of the day modern steels will be damaged and 420 and 5160 wont be... proof?

Your full of crap dude, 3v is tougher more wear resistant and more corrosion resistant than 5160, and 420 is outdated and way below average in toughness AND wear resistance compared to ELMAX and several others.

What experience do you have with 3v or Elmax ? List the steels YOU personally have tried and compared to other steels.
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VERY good question. What say you, Mr. Sanders?
 
I was just looking at some of my knives in steels like 10V, A11, S110V and S125V and started to think about this thread and was just amazed that all of them are still in one piece.

Not even getting in my knives in other steels like S30V, S35VN, M390 etc.

Because you know none of them are as good as a Buck in 420HC or 5160.... (Choke, Cough)....
 
I can't believe he is serious...
 
Duane Sanders said:
I already know all that in the first paragraph. What the core group does not understand the same variables apply to their precious super(ior) steels. I make the observation they haven't used them enough to notice they should have a very different conclusion from someone else in the core. There's no way they all draw the same conclusion from different and varied uses. So they say the science applies equally to everyone with their choice this week while only the lowly 5160 experiences variables causing a different out come. They aren't smart enough to convince me this weeks steel will perform any or much better than what I use. They are just shilling one another's posts. Good old boys patting each other on the back. It fills that feel good void in their life. I go for hikes and go hunting for that fulfillment.

I've seen them steels that hold an edge forever under hard work. They sure don't dull but the pay off isn't worth it because you can never gain wear resistance without giving up toughness. You don't get tough without giving up some edge retaining wear resistance. The tougher steels like 5160 and at least Bucks 420HC will still have an edge at the end of the day you can fix for tomorrow instead of a still pretty sharp damaged one.

There is no I have a steel that's toughest and holds the best edge ever knife out there. You will give up one for the other.

The core here got mad in the other thread when I made it very clear I choose tough still has an edge to sharpen over still sharp damaged edges. 5160 can be brought back to a very smooth extremely tough edge fast with no damage to it. Wear resistant steels will never do that. I'm not talking about science either.

I will take a wild guess the core might be in a situation some day where they work hard and use a knife all day long. The pendulum will swing real quick to the tougher side after they make some observations. Being too tired to fix damaged edges after a hard days work will be the prime motivator.

All of these "custom" knives everyone seems to think are so prolific for knife users. Last time I seen a custom in the woods was a Loveless before the price was jacked up. If all these production knives were as poor as the core says they are then people who use knives would quickly abandon them. Their science can prove that one too.
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You say you want toughness, but you've dismissed S7 in your arguments which, as far as knife steels go, is pretty much the toughest stuff I know of. And 3V isn't too far behind. 5160 is tried and true for sure, and if it works for you, great, but there's plenty of hard evidence that the steels you're claiming will break down or chip out are incredibly durable, vastly more so than I've ever needed.

And seriously, many of us do use knives all day. I use mine a ton, but I use it for cutting cardboard. Toughness has almost no bearing on that kind of cutting, but abrasion resistance sure does. I cycle through D2, S30V, S35VN, M390, CTS-XHP and ZDP -189. Haven't had any issues bringing the edges of those knives back with zero damage.

Claiming 5160 is best for you? Totally within the bounds of logic and reason. Claiming it's best for anyone who uses a knife all day? Completely ridiculous. Different steels for different tasks.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
You say you want toughness, but you've dismissed S7 in your arguments which, as far as knife steels go, is pretty much the toughest stuff I know of. And 3V isn't too far behind. 5160 is tried and true for sure, and if it works for you, great, but there's plenty of hard evidence that the steels you're claiming will break down or chip out are incredibly durable, vastly more so than I've ever needed.

And seriously, many of us do use knives all day. I use mine a ton, but I use it for cutting cardboard. Toughness has almost no bearing on that kind of cutting, but abrasion resistance sure does. I cycle through D2, S30V, S35VN, M390, CTS-XHP and ZDP -189. Haven't had any issues bringing the edges of those knives back with zero damage.

Claiming 5160 is best for you? Totally within the bounds of logic and reason. Claiming it's best for anyone who uses a knife all day? Completely ridiculous. Different steels for different tasks.
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That's not what I am saying. That's what they are saying. 5160 is a great steel because it is tough over a wide range of hardness. 3V at 58HRC is almost twice as tough as 3V at 60HRC. I found that last night on their precious google in a matter of minutes. 5160 does not suffer the same. Now drop the HRC on 5160 to the mid 50s and them superior steels won't even touch it's toughness. 5160 in the mid 50s will hold an edge all day long being used and for most even longer in light use. A 3V at the cores preferred 60-62HRC will be significantly less tough than 5160 in the mid 50s and both will keep an edge longer than you could work either before the user needs a break.

Their real issue is they keep saying the science says it's better. So they tell me it's better. When I let them know the pros and cons they tell me it's up to me to prove. No. They say this weeks steel is better and when I ask how they site the science. Science proves nothing. It is statistically impossible for the core to have the same exact observations when none of them will be using them exactly the same. It's simple, they got their knowledge from google and YouTube. Action proves more than words. If they really believe the science then cool by me. I'm looking for more in depth personal information which is obvious the core can not provide.

They don't understand the masses prefer a steel that will still have an edge to sharpen at the end of a hard day. The mass don't cut sterile cardboard in the spare room. That's what a hobbiest does. If you need an edge to last for senseless amounts of sterile cardboard cutting then they aren't even in the same league as most knife owners. A butter knife will cut and keep cutting cardboard at the same exact sharpness level even longer than the superior steels. Cardboard is not tough or durable. It's a pointless test of a knife. Even for someone who works around the stuff all day. The people who work around it need staple ramming resisting steels, real staples, not them ones for office paper. They need steels that resist hard objects in boxes and contact with concrete. When they understand that science they will understand why they are in such a small minority of knife buyers. No one wants to pay more for a steel that constantly chips on cardboard staples and breaks tips when the contents of a box is a hard metal object. Don't believe me? Go into a warehouse where people do such work and the fanciest steel you will run into is in the 420 range.

The core has a bunch of crazy talk. If they were so right then you'd see S30V as a starter steel for warehouse workers.
 
Again answer the question.

What steels have you PERSONALLY used and compared?

Have you used 3v? I have used 5160 AND 3V.

You say 5160 in the 50's hardness is tougher than 3v... PROVIDE PROOF.

You also say 5160 doesn't lose toughness when the hardness is changed?!?! WRONG provide proof... oh wait you can't because its not true.

HOW MANY STEELS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY USED AND COMPARED?

One more thing, the edge retention if a spring steel with low alloy content vs 3v at 58rc ??????? Edge retention of 3v would be out of this world compared to 5160 in the 50's.. AND 5160 IN THE 50'S WILL ROLL AND DENT when 3v will take ZERO damage. Higher hardness PREVENTS DEFORMATION.

Simple question.

I see now, you have NO clue about what your talking about. You come to bladeforums and start talking out your posterior claiming everyone on a knife enthusiasts website is wrong and your right...

This very well could be Boris? Mods IP check this phony please.
Duane Sanders said:
That's not what I am saying. That's what they are saying. 5160 is a great steel because it is tough over a wide range of hardness. 3V at 58HRC is almost twice as tough as 3V at 60HRC. I found that last night on their precious google in a matter of minutes. 5160 does not suffer the same. Now drop the HRC on 5160 to the mid 50s and them superior steels won't even touch it's toughness. 5160 in the mid 50s will hold an edge all day long being used and for most even longer in light use. A 3V at the cores preferred 60-62HRC will be significantly less tough than 5160 in the mid 50s and both will keep an edge longer than you could work either before the user needs a break.

Their real issue is they keep saying the science says it's better. So they tell me it's better. When I let them know the pros and cons they tell me it's up to me to prove. No. They say this weeks steel is better and when I ask how they site the science. Science proves nothing. It is statistically impossible for the core to have the same exact observations when none of them will be using them exactly the same. It's simple, they got their knowledge from google and YouTube. Action proves more than words. If they really believe the science then cool by me. I'm looking for more in depth personal information which is obvious the core can not provide.

They don't understand the masses prefer a steel that will still have an edge to sharpen at the end of a hard day. The mass don't cut sterile cardboard in the spare room. That's what a hobbiest does. If you need an edge to last for senseless amounts of sterile cardboard cutting then they aren't even in the same league as most knife owners. A butter knife will cut and keep cutting cardboard at the same exact sharpness level even longer than the superior steels. Cardboard is not tough or durable. It's a pointless test of a knife. Even for someone who works around the stuff all day. The people who work around it need staple ramming resisting steels, real staples, not them ones for office paper. They need steels that resist hard objects in boxes and contact with concrete. When they understand that science they will understand why they are in such a small minority of knife buyers. No one wants to pay more for a steel that constantly chips on cardboard staples and breaks tips when the contents of a box is a hard metal object. Don't believe me? Go into a warehouse where people do such work and the fanciest steel you will run into is in the 420 range.

The core has a bunch of crazy talk. If they were so right then you'd see S30V as a starter steel for warehouse workers.
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shinyedges said:
Again answer the question.

What steels have you PERSONALLY used and compared?

Have you used 3v? I have used 5160 AND 3V.

You say 5160 in the 50's hardness is tougher than 3v... PROVIDE PROOF.

You also say 5160 doesn't lose toughness when the hardness is changed?!?! WRONG provide proof... oh wait you can't because its not true.

HOW MANY STEELS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY USED AND COMPARED?

Simple question.

I see now, you have NO clue about what your talking about. You come to bladeforums and start talking out your posterior claiming everyone on a knife enthusiasts website is wrong and your right...

This very well could be Boris? Mods IP check this phony please.
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You are freaking out. Calm down. I said 5160 does not suffer as much toughness loss with a higher HRC as the steel of the week does. A real good reason why it's used by marks and buyers.

Stick to what I said.

You good sir, and the core are the ones who say your flavor of the week is much more superior. I asked you before you asked me. Not in this thread, but before. I'm just saying your praise for your better steel is based on science which matches what the rest of the core says so you say it too. I'm smart enough to know all of you can't say whatever you want to, even if you all say it. To have the same exact experience with steels based on varied uses because no two people use knives exactly the same will not draw the same opinion from the core like it has.

You now want me to prove what you could not. The simple solution for you and obvious way to make yourself look superior in knowledge and experience is to stop the science defense of what you say and just prove what you said.

I know you probably read this in a fury so I will repeat the opening statement. I said 3V suffers greater toughness loss with just a slight increase in hardness that 5160 does not. Your google showed me that in .00000147 seconds of searching.

Here is what your google told me about 3v when it is taken to a soft 60HRC from 58HRC.

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

A drop of 35 charpy points. That's impressive. Almost half of what it started out at. Just like I said.

All I can find about 5160 is praise about how it's right on the heels of S7 at higher HRC. no mention of what it does at normal knife hardness and only solid numbers I found were mid 40s HRC for springs. Them numbers were out of the atmosphere, they don't relate unless someone were to make such a low hardness 5160 knife.

Science sucks sometimes. 3V is not so tough at higher edge retaining hardness levels.

Maybe science isn't your best route, from what I'm seeing. Only 3V knives I see I like are in the higher HRC level and I'm not about to drop that much money on a weaker blade. The science is not impressing me at this point.
 
Oh lord he's delusional
Duane Sanders said:
You are freaking out. Calm down. I said 5160 does not suffer as much toughness loss with a higher HRC as the steel of the week does. A real good reason why it's used by marks and buyers.

Stick to what I said.

You good sir, and the core are the ones who say your flavor of the week is much more superior. I asked you before you asked me. Not in this thread, but before. I'm just saying your praise for your better steel is based on science which matches what the rest of the core says so you say it too. I'm smart enough to know all of you can't say whatever you want to, even if you all say it. To have the same exact experience with steels based on varied uses because no two people use knives exactly the same will not draw the same opinion from the core like it has.

You now want me to prove what you could not. The simple solution for you and obvious way to make yourself look superior in knowledge and experience is to stop the science defense of what you say and just prove what you said.

I know you probably read this in a fury so I will repeat the opening statement. I said 3V suffers greater toughness loss with just a slight increase in hardness that 5160 does not. Your google showed me that in .00000147 seconds of searching.

Here is what your google told me about 3v when it is taken to a soft 60HRC from 58HRC.

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

A drop of 35 charpy points. That's impressive. Almost half of what it started out at. Just like I said.

All I can find about 5160 is praise about how it's right on the heels of S7 at higher HRC. no mention of what it does at normal knife hardness and only solid numbers I found were mid 40s HRC for springs. Them numbers were out of the atmosphere, they don't relate unless someone were to make such a low hardness 5160 knife.

Science sucks sometimes. 3V is not so tough at higher edge retaining hardness levels.

Maybe science isn't your best route, from what I'm seeing. Only 3V knives I see I like are in the higher HRC level and I'm not about to drop that much money on a weaker blade. The science is not impressing me at this point.
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I'm done, you refuse to answer the question of what steels you have experience with and compared because you have NEVER TRIED the steels your ASSuming about. You have very little knowledge on how hardness effects EDGE STABILITY and DEFORMATION RESISTANCE and further more you have shown your ignorance is EXTREMELY high.

You dont understand the purpose of carbides in steel.

You don't understand the change in toughness when 3v goes up in hardness is actually going to HELP resist deformation.

Overall you have very little understanding about the science AND the implementation of science in steels. You also display a know it all attitude despite knowing VERY little and having USED and COMPARED even FEWER steels.

Your stay here at bladeforums will be short until your banned and you come back as another screen name.. to sling your lies and hog wash. Your pathetic.
 
Duane Sanders said:
That's not what I am saying. That's what they are saying. 5160 is a great steel because it is tough over a wide range of hardness. 3V at 58HRC is almost twice as tough as 3V at 60HRC. I found that last night on their precious google in a matter of minutes. 5160 does not suffer the same. Now drop the HRC on 5160 to the mid 50s and them superior steels won't even touch it's toughness. 5160 in the mid 50s will hold an edge all day long being used and for most even longer in light use. A 3V at the cores preferred 60-62HRC will be significantly less tough than 5160 in the mid 50s and both will keep an edge longer than you could work either before the user needs a break.

Their real issue is they keep saying the science says it's better. So they tell me it's better. When I let them know the pros and cons they tell me it's up to me to prove. No. They say this weeks steel is better and when I ask how they site the science. Science proves nothing. It is statistically impossible for the core to have the same exact observations when none of them will be using them exactly the same. It's simple, they got their knowledge from google and YouTube. Action proves more than words. If they really believe the science then cool by me. I'm looking for more in depth personal information which is obvious the core can not provide.

They don't understand the masses prefer a steel that will still have an edge to sharpen at the end of a hard day. The mass don't cut sterile cardboard in the spare room. That's what a hobbiest does. If you need an edge to last for senseless amounts of sterile cardboard cutting then they aren't even in the same league as most knife owners. A butter knife will cut and keep cutting cardboard at the same exact sharpness level even longer than the superior steels. Cardboard is not tough or durable. It's a pointless test of a knife. Even for someone who works around the stuff all day. The people who work around it need staple ramming resisting steels, real staples, not them ones for office paper. They need steels that resist hard objects in boxes and contact with concrete. When they understand that science they will understand why they are in such a small minority of knife buyers. No one wants to pay more for a steel that constantly chips on cardboard staples and breaks tips when the contents of a box is a hard metal object. Don't believe me? Go into a warehouse where people do such work and the fanciest steel you will run into is in the 420 range.

The core has a bunch of crazy talk. If they were so right then you'd see S30V as a starter steel for warehouse workers.
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I've hit staples with all of the steels mentioned, never had any serious chipping. I cut cardboard because I own a business and get deliveries daily. Limited recycling space means boxes have to be broken down. I can tell you from personal experience that 5160 will not hold an edge through much of that at all. It just doesn't have the carbide content. Cardboard isn't terribly durable, but it is abrasive, so steels with high levels of abrasion resistance just work better when cutting it. You say I need a steel to avoid hitting hard objects in boxes? I don't hit the objects in the boxes because that costs me money. I have tagged concrete, wood and other surfaces with the knives in the steels I mentioned. It's rare, but it happens. The worst damage? Minor edge chipping that sharpened out in minutes.

And applying your logic about warehouse workers, have they suddenly started handing out blades in 5160 as starter blades? Warehouse workers are given disposable razor blades with almost no toughness no matter what steel they're in. That's what's cost effective, not what works the best. Another argument from popularity. And one that doesn't even support your thesis.
 
Me either... the crazy thing is he actually believes he is right:rolleyes:

Why even come to bladeforums? Just start your own forum called "Duaneknowseverything" see how many people show up.
Ankerson said:
I can't either.....

It's been a long time since I have seen someone that is this clueless.
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