6lb axe / RIVETING DISCUSSION ON PROUD HAFTS!!

And here it is! A17 itself! Along with my 2nd double bit, C23! No, the handle isn't bent. The camera was acting up due to the sun.
Ps. P phantomknives nailed it.
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I currently have around 45, haven’t counted lately. I never intended to start collecting, but refurbishing turned out to be SO addictive. I love that something so historically significant is being saved from the rust heap. I have a high stress job and I find refurbishing really relaxing and rewarding, I was a journeyman sheet metal mechanic, so I have tools and I know how to use them, I love working with wood, and the learning, thanks to this group, never ends. I am no bushman or Axeman, although I know my way around an axe, if the task isn’t super demanding. I need to start selling, which brings to mind a 5th category: people who love refurbishing but need to sell in order to keep refurbishing. Ah, let’s face it; I’m basically an addict.
 
Hey guys Iv'e set a little something up. I thought we could do with a place like this. What do you reckon?

Thread is called - [The Official Members Discussion Thread]
 
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There's honestly not much that wasn't covered already. It's not strictly necessary, but does create a slightly more secure hang. The risk of damaging the wood is minimal providing that the wood only projects minimally past the eye. The rule of thumb that you shouldn't be able to grip it by the projection is a sound one. Is there really anything else to cover? :)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
There's honestly not much that wasn't covered already. It's not strictly necessary, but does create a slightly more secure hang. The risk of damaging the wood is minimal providing that the wood only projects minimally past the eye. The rule of thumb that you shouldn't be able to grip it by the projection is a sound one. Is there really anything else to cover? :)
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People in the future will read the thread and maybe have new questions of their own so was important to bring the discussion back to a place where they can do that instead of let the thread derail. Thanks.
 
Honestly what Iv'e taken from this..it seems there is no concrete 100% unequivocal way of doing it. People have their preferred method and reasons to go with that. Either way at the end of the day if you can swing the axe and the head stays on, job done. Maybe Mythbusters can work it out? haha
 
Leaving it proud does not provide a slightly, nor greatly more secure hang. Nor is it less secure.
If indeed it were a better way we'd know about it for sure from old texts, literature and lore. There is no historical precedent for doing this. So the take away is; It doesn't matter. Entirely up to the axe user.
 
Can't say as I agree with that assessment. There's a noticeable extra flare to the wood above the eye when left proud. To claim that this does not increase the security of the head strikes me as rather remarkable, and I'd have to see some evidence of it failing to hold a head in place any more securely than the same head with a duplicate hanging job done flush. Do I think it's a huge advantage? Not especially. But I do firmly believe it of use with short-eyed axes like Hudson Bays and a lot of European styles of axes.
 
I submit there may be an advantage on, non mechanically hung, very short eyes like you mentioned. Hudson bay etc. However even these from as far back as i can see through magazines and ads came from the factory flush. You know the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it". However the proof i think needs to be the other way around. Simply because in the wealth of knowledge we've all inherited from all those axe men before nowhere, at least that I've seen, is it recommended to leave the tongue proud. Flush was perfectly fine for a couple hundred years for all the men who lived by axes but now it's not? The eye is tapered for this very reason. Even if it's a small taper the effect is the same. Leaving it proud, in my opinion, is purely aesthetic. Even if someone were to find some anecdotal examples of men leaving it proud in the past the vast majority cut them flush. That's good enough for me!
 
This strikes me as saying that nails work just as effectively without heads. This is true in cases where only shear forces are occurring, but absolutely not in cases where any leverage is being applied to the affixed components. Wood that has expanded above the head beyond the bounds of the taper of the eye will certainly add resistance to any prying and tugging forces. A head would not be able to creep up the tongue of such a handle without compressing that wood to so great a degree that it could squeeze down into the top of the eye. I can't think of any way that this could not increase the security of the head compared to without. Can you explain, physically, how there would be no difference?
 
I'll try the analogy. If the tip of the nail was fixed and the rest of the shank tapered up with no head it would hold. Not a very good analogy for my perspective but i tried to make a relevant argument using it.
The only difference i can see is once the tongue is worn out and the head is loose the proud part would prevent the head from flying off. But by that time it's ready for a new hang anyway. All things being equal; what I'm saying is that a flush hang will last just as long as a proud one. Therefore in my opinion it's strictly aesthetic appeal.
I think the "shelf" or the protruding wood we can see on top of the eye is just a manifestation of the clamping force that's already taking place inside the eye due to the taper. I feel like because we can see it it seems stronger.
I keep mentioning the past and the way manufacturers hung them flush not as a copout but because almost everyone on here has been doing this longer than I. I have to(not entirely, I've hung 85 now) rest on the laurels of those that used to do this for a living. And unless someone can show me that the men back then just never figured out such an obvious thing i can't help but feel whatever difference, if indeed there is any, is negligible.
Perhaps I'm wrong! I don't think I am and i am enjoying a civil discussion about it! It would be a lot easier to talk this out than type it... There's a lot more to say!
 
I think a major reason for the flush hang is that most American axes have such a deep eye that having any projection was of little tangible benefit and a flush hang does show confidence in the security of the head. If you're getting a tight enough hang, there's no real advantage, and a few potential disadvantages (though small.) But I know I'd much rather have a bit of a proud hang on a short-eyed axe.

I think that in all of this it's important not to over-value the expertise of historical users. And even of those who were great at slinging an axe, only a handful of them would probably be able to tell you the why behind the how. I'd wager easily 80% of users historically were the same as they are today, and just used the tool as a means to an end. Just look at all of the heads with mangled eyes and heavily mushroomed polls and warnings against abuse issued by manufacturers describing what kinds of damage weren't warranted against. They had work to do, and they got it done, but could have probably done it easier with a little more attention to the proper care of their tools and could have extended their life with proper maintenance after such abusive uses.

I come across this SO often with scythes that it's not even funny. People driving nails under the nibs or putting fencing staples over the nib bands to affix them in place when the wood wore or shrunk instead of just taking it apart and bending the loop a little more closed for a snug fit. Blades bent and twisted and the points worn from repeated hard swings right into the dirt. Edges so thickened that they'd clearly not been ground back in their life. Tangs left factory-flat instead of being adjusted for the user, or a deliberate twist added to the heel of the blade instead of properly bending the tang. Ribs ground through from poor grinding technique. Snath ends fractured from over-tightening a loop bolt that was already bottomed out against the wood. It goes on and on. It is FAR rarer for me to come across a scythe that was clearly tuned by an experienced user than it is for me to come across them in outright abused condition. The same goes for axes. There were certainly some highly talented men who good and truly knew how to use and care for their axes, but I can virtually guarantee that even in the golden age of axe use that the experts were not the majority of axe users. And under most circumstances I'm sure those experts would agree that if an axe was well-hung that any wood left above the eye was unnecessary. But most of those users would also be using axes with full eyes.

Ultimately, I think that it does increase the mechanical hold, but unless you have an anemic eye it's not of significant advantage unless your overall hanging job was on the sloppy side. But the same can be said of steel wedges.
 
rjdankert said:
Interesting discussion about proud vs flush. I have some thoughts but no real conclusions. First a question. Suppose you were given the axe below cut proud about 1/4-3/8". It's rock solid after 20+ hours of hard use. Unfortunately, junior borrows it and leaves it in the driveway for the delivery man to run over and break the handle. No other part of the handle has any damage. You are going to replace the handle (after the talk with junior). You have virtually no tools but have a drift (scrap wood) and a hammer (or a rock) to drive the broken handle out. However, one tool you do have is a saw and you want to drive the broken handle out with the least effort. The question is: Do you drive it out as is or do you cut it flush, and then drive it out?



My inclination would be to cut it flush first, BUT I have never encountered this situation and I don't remember running across any information on what to do, so I have no idea - just my gut instinct (which along with $1.06 will get me a coffee at McDonald's).

Now, you may be thinking that because my gut is telling me that that handle would come out easier if cut flush that I think that a proud haft would have the potential to keep a head from flying off longer than a flush cut. I don't know how much, but that's what my gut tells me. I don't think it would necessarily keep the head tighter. Already mentioned is the humidity factor. Here in SW MI it can get quite humid in the summer and dry in the winter. Tool handles, wooden doors, you name it change quite a bit with the seasons and I don't think the flair of the handle over the top of the eye will help overcome that.

I also like the idea mentioned that leaving the haft proud will allow cutting the handle flush and not the wedge to gain purchase to pull the wedge. Again, no experience here.

As for my own hangs, I have done both. I can say that my preference is to use a saw to trim off the top of the handle and I don't like the idea of my saw blades contacting an axe head.:eek:

The above are just my thoughts. If you've got this far in the post thanks for reading.


Bob
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I think Bob settled this for us. He made the clearest analysis of the of the question.

It's damn clear that no one would try to drive that haft out of the head without first cutting it flush. I can't see any circumstance where Bob is wrong. If anyone can please enlighten us.
 
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