6lb axe / RIVETING DISCUSSION ON PROUD HAFTS!!

Interesting discussion about proud vs flush. I have some thoughts but no real conclusions. First a question. Suppose you were given the axe below cut proud about 1/4-3/8". It's rock solid after 20+ hours of hard use. Unfortunately, junior borrows it and leaves it in the driveway for the delivery man to run over and break the handle. No other part of the handle has any damage. You are going to replace the handle (after the talk with junior). You have virtually no tools but have a drift (scrap wood) and a hammer (or a rock) to drive the broken handle out. However, one tool you do have is a saw and you want to drive the broken handle out with the least effort. The question is: Do you drive it out as is or do you cut it flush, and then drive it out?



My inclination would be to cut it flush first, BUT I have never encountered this situation and I don't remember running across any information on what to do, so I have no idea - just my gut instinct (which along with $1.06 will get me a coffee at McDonald's).

Now, you may be thinking that because my gut is telling me that that handle would come out easier if cut flush that I think that a proud haft would have the potential to keep a head from flying off longer than a flush cut. I don't know how much, but that's what my gut tells me. I don't think it would necessarily keep the head tighter. Already mentioned is the humidity factor. Here in SW MI it can get quite humid in the summer and dry in the winter. Tool handles, wooden doors, you name it change quite a bit with the seasons and I don't think the flair of the handle over the top of the eye will help overcome that.

I also like the idea mentioned that leaving the haft proud will allow cutting the handle flush and not the wedge to gain purchase to pull the wedge. Again, no experience here.

As for my own hangs, I have done both. I can say that my preference is to use a saw to trim off the top of the handle and I don't like the idea of my saw blades contacting an axe head.:eek:

The above are just my thoughts. If you've got this far in the post thanks for reading.


Bob
 
Old Axeman said:
Dont get me started on the double wood cross wedge thing, which in my opinion is just the latest trend in hanging an axe, with no merit, and like the proud haft, a lot of draw backs.
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It really depends on the axe. For American (and American-style) axes it's almost always unnecessary, only being practical in situations where eye size vs. handle availability forces you to use a haft with a slightly undersized tongue, fore-to-aft. But with axes that use slip-fit style eyes (like many Spanish, Portuguese, French, and Italian axes) that are being fit to a wedged haft, it's often needed because the eye expands in that axis in addition to laterally. Wedge-fitting slip-fit eyed axes is pretty commonly done in many of those countries to the point where in some regions you'll find a 50/50 split of handle type.
 
Old Axeman said:
Dont get me started on the double wood cross wedge thing, which in my opinion is just the latest trend in hanging an axe, with no merit, and like the proud haft, a lot of draw backs.
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What are some of the draw backs? More wedges mean more potential wedge issues? If it aint broke don't re-invent it?

I appreciate a cross wedge purely for the craftsmanship that goes into it. I myself have never done one as I am a beginner hanger but one day I would love to try it purely for fun. I have a couple of axes with cross wedges using different wood types and aesthetically they look cool as hell (this is subjective of course). I really enjoy looking at it and pondering that some serious love and care has gone into hanging this axe. I also love showing my family and friends and saying check that out..it's a cross wedge..that ain't all that easy to do cleanly (at least I think?) Who here has cross wedged, is there an exact science to getting it right and what are people view on the XWEDGE?! Is it really that hard? How many x wedges did it take before you had it down?

[EDITED] - I had some atrocious spelling originally which I blame on a sleepless night followed by a 3 hour university exam first thing this morning.
 
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rjdankert said:
Interesting discussion about proud vs flush. I have some thoughts but no real conclusions. First a question. Suppose you were given the axe below cut proud about 1/4-3/8". It's rock solid after 20+ hours of hard use. Unfortunately, junior borrows it and leaves it in the driveway for the delivery man to run over and break the handle. No other part of the handle has any damage. You are going to replace the handle (after the talk with junior). You have virtually no tools but have a drift (scrap wood) and a hammer (or a rock) to drive the broken handle out. However, one tool you do have is a saw and you want to drive the broken handle out with the least effort. The question is: Do you drive it out as is or do you cut it flush, and then drive it out?



My inclination would be to cut it flush first, BUT I have never encountered this situation and I don't remember running across any information on what to do, so I have no idea - just my gut instinct (which along with $1.06 will get me a coffee at McDonald's).

Now, you may be thinking that because my gut is telling me that that handle would come out easier if cut flush that I think that a proud haft would have the potential to keep a head from flying off longer than a flush cut. I don't know how much, but that's what my gut tells me. I don't think it would necessarily keep the head tighter. Already mentioned is the humidity factor. Here in SW MI it can get quite humid in the summer and dry in the winter. Tool handles, wooden doors, you name it change quite a bit with the seasons and I don't think the flair of the handle over the top of the eye will help overcome that.

I also like the idea mentioned that leaving the haft proud will allow cutting the handle flush and not the wedge to gain purchase to pull the wedge. Again, no experience here.

As for my own hangs, I have done both. I can say that my preference is to use a saw to trim off the top of the handle and I don't like the idea of my saw blades contacting an axe head.:eek:

The above are just my thoughts. If you've got this far in the post thanks for reading.


Bob
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I saw the haft off a little proud of the bottom of the eye and drive it right out the top with out the aid of a drift because once it starts moving (and it will) I can finish the job with a bolt as a drift. I don't care at all about it being proud on top of the eye. It's rare that I have to even drill out a wedge or chip epoxy, a hammer will move it. No need to to worry about the haft being proud.
 
I have never noticed any difference in strength of a haft left proud vs flush cut. I have long thought that moisture in the eye is my biggest enemy of hafts and a proud haft may wick more moisture. It's one of the reason's I think so many perma bonded Plumb hafts have survived, and those hafts are cut short of the top of the eye. But I trim my hafts a little proud because I don't want to damage my saws. I do round off the edges with a file or sander and then seal with bees wax top and bottom.
 
Guys can we talk about wedge wood mated with haft wood while we are at it please..!

All the hickory handles I buy from the usual hardware stores come with hickory wedges. As this Elwell is my second hang I want to know if the stock hickory wedge (which is obviously cut wrong as hell) is a good fit for my haft. I was under the impression that you should only have a hardwood handle with a softwood wedge. Or to clarify my point, a softwood handle with a hardwood wedge for example. The point being, do two very different woods mate and hickory on hickory does not? In that case I have a friend who is sending me an axe in a months time and they also have an inventory of wedges so I could procure one of those softwood wedges to mate with my hickory handle. Most of these wedges are New Zealand natives but much of the principals are the same.

What is your opinion? Should I hang it with the hickory wedge it comes with or use a softwood wedge in order to facilitate a better hang??
 
You are on the right track! Although one would never want to use soft wood for a haft. Poplar is a very good choice for a wedge. Had some of my best results using poplar and conventional wisdom says that's the way to go. The soft (poplar is technically a hardwood) wood conforms to any inconsistencies or gaps in the tongue or eye. However i also really like white(paper) birch. Also works very well. And with some older hafts where the hickory is a little soft or weather worn I've used rock maple and it's worked well.
I highly recommend getting some poplar wedges for sure. Hope that helped!
 
Wood cross wedges dont serve any purpose other than being interesting to look at. The contention that they help you fill the eye with a haft that is too small for the eye makes no sense. If the haft does not fill the eye from bit to poll, you need to start over with another haft that does. My objection is the same as my objection to steel wedges, you are introducing more potential cracks into your new haft. Look, this has been well established for over 250 years in America. Start with a good piece of Hickory, take the time to shape the haft for a perfect fit with a not too wide wedge of a softer wood than Hickory (I have had my best luck with Yellow Poplar, Black Walnut, and lately Koa), drive the wedge home to the point of refusal ( that does not mean all the way to the bottom of the kerf), cut off the top of the haft and protruding wedge with a coping saw just slightly proud of the eye, trim the haft and wedge up neatly, and oil and wax the top. A modern change that is not necessary but helps, that I started in An Ax To Grind 20 years ago, is to apply some swell lock to the wedge and kerf just before driving the wedge home. The end.
 
Old Axeman said:
Wood cross wedges dont serve any purpose other than being interesting to look at. The contention that they help you fill the eye with a haft that is too small for the eye makes no sense. If the haft does not fill the eye from bit to poll, you need to start over with another haft that does. My objection is the same as my objection to steel wedges, you are introducing more potential cracks into your new haft. Look, this has been well established for over 250 years in America. Start with a good piece of Hickory, take the time to shape the haft for a perfect fit with a not too wide wedge of a softer wood than Hickory (I have had my best luck with Yellow Poplar, Black Walnut, and lately Koa), drive the wedge home to the point of refusal ( that does not mean all the way to the bottom of the kerf), cut off the top of the haft and protruding wedge with a coping saw just slightly proud of the eye, trim the haft and wedge up neatly, and oil and wax the top. A modern change that is not necessary but helps, that I started in An Ax To Grind 20 years ago, is to apply some swell lock to the wedge and kerf just before driving the wedge home. The end.
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Thank you very very much mate. Concise and succinct. Advice taken and greatly appreciated.
 
The fact is that they DO serve a purpose in certain contexts. Again, if you're dealing with an American-type eye and do not have access to a haft with a properly large tongue, nor wood correct for fashioning one from scratch and/or the time to fabricate one from board stock, it doesn't much matter that it's not ideal, because it's what you've got and it'll get you back to work. It won't work if the fore/aft gap is large--we're talking only a gap of 1/8" to 3/16". In that circumstance, the gap is small enough for a cross wedge to close the gap. I consider it better than "spiking" the hole, or just leaving the gap there, which is not exactly uncommon to see in less-than-expertly-hafted axes. And in cases where you're wedge-fitting a slip-fit style eye, it's outright necessary to use one because the eye actually tapers in that axis.

It's absolutely true that most people doing them in the English-speaking world at the moment are doing them for cosmetic reasons, and it introduces some extra degree of weakness that wouldn't be present if they were avoided, so it makes sense not to put them in if you don't have to, but in some circumstances they absolutely are useful.
 
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If part of your question was if anyone has done it, then yes.
 
A couple of slip-fit eyes with different approaches to wedged fit:

Black locust cross wedges with hickory on a custom handle--
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A hickory tapered plug wedge seated using a hydraulic shop press--
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The base handle wood is European ash. I'm unsure of the wood of the conventional wedge, but it was factory-glued. The plug wedge was used to correct a slightly loose fit from the wood shrinking up between Europe and here, as well as to get better fore-aft expansion than was present with the original wedge job. The manufacturer had tried to rely on a circular steel wedge that was basically just tubing so it didn't really expand the wood much. I drilled it out and put the plug in instead and it fixed it right up.
 
David Martin said:
I don't think the poll on these last few axes were meant for any type work.? DM
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The lower one can be used for light to medium work without issue. The depth of the poll on most American axes is mostly for balancing purposes, and aren't outright meant for hammering anything harder than wood. There is no poll on the top one whatsoever. It makes a great carving hatchet, among other things, since it has such a deep bit for its head weight. Heads with polls intended for striking metallic targets have proper hardened hammer heads to them. For knocking a wooden stake into the ground or what have you, a small poll works fine.

52602995_10217873517138028_1379985464789827584_n.jpg
 
muleman77 said:
I fit eyes that are longer than the tongue with a single oversized wedge, that fills the length, regularly. As long as the bottom fit is good, it works fine.
So even in that context the crosswedges don't seem necessary, with American heads.
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The gap I'm talking about is on either side of the kerf.
 
I don't have much to add other than throwing this out there for guys that are new to hanging and may be lurking here. While popular is a good wood to use and is what haft manufactures supply with our hafts here in the USA to often they provide wedges from decayed wood. Such wood will feel light and at times you can see mold (grey color). It's just not suitable to use.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
The gap I'm talking about is on either side of the kerf.
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As am I.

As an example, boys axe handles on full size heads. Great way to get a nice thin 28" handle locally, without a special order. I've done this a bunch of times, used them plenty and it works fine.

But the tongue is small, and you have to carve a wedge wider than the supplied one, to fill the gap.
 
Thank you Muleman--there are times when I have hung with a haft that was a tight fit at the bottom and used a single large wedge to fill the top out. As you said, this is far better for a user axe than cross wedging. My first choice is still to fit the haft correctly at the top and bottom of the eye, but some times you need to do what you need to do.
I woke up this morning thinking that maybe there is a axe category for using cross wedging and large proud haft tops. I have always considered only two categories for my hand tools--ones that you use to make your living and ones that are a piece of history that needs to be preserved as such. Now I am thinking that there is a third category- tools you just play with and look at. I am not trying to be a smart ass here.
 
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