A couple of mid-techs - looking for user feedback

[matus]

Hi,

since a while I am looking for a larger (3.5"+) folder, top quality and a reasonably good slicer. In the mean time I bought a small Sebenza 21 (which is nice) and briefly handled the large Sebenza 21 (which is nice, too), but I have decided to keep looking at other options. It may well be that I will end up with large Sebenza, but I would probably prefer different knife just for the sake of change. Also - there are many cool knives out there

Anyhow, after quite a while I came up with the following candidates. These cover quite some price range and I am expecting that the price difference will show in one or another way.

Please note:
I am NOT looking for the ultimate best knife of the lot or trying to figure out whether knife X is better than Y one, I am looking for user experience with these knives - in particular how well do they work and what types of tasks are they suited. The choice, after all, has also emotional part, I just want to avoid getting 'the wrong knife'

So - the knives

Spartan Blades Akribis folder
This knife was talked about (some blade play here and there, but excellent CS and very good over all). The handle looks very functional, the blade shape looks perfect - how well does it slice?

Carson Tech Lab Griffin (I used commercial link as I did not find it on the Carson Tech labs webpage)
One of the most expensive mid-tech knives from China. I really like the blade shape and, based on one youtube review/overview, the knife is ex exceptionally well made, the design looks very functional. But user opinions are scarce. Not too easy to find/buy either. I am really intrigued by this one.

Freeman 451 button lock flipper
Now this is one interesting knife. Based on what I found it should be very well made and tough, though I am not sure how well it cuts different stuff. Price is very attractive.

LionSteel TM1 (carbon or micarta)
Interestingly shaped blade, reasonable price, probably very good F&F - bot how well does it work? I am wondering whether the 50% more expensive carbon version would be better than the micarta one.

Zero Tolerance 0452 CF
Interesting knife with a clean design. I am not sure here about the grind and slicing abilities of this knife.

Matt Diskin Volcan flipper (again, a commercial link, but Matt does not have his own webpage)
This is a very cool knife IMO - I have found quite a few WTS threads about it, but little user expereince. These are for me on the upper side of the budget (or even beyuond it). I am trying to figure out whether they also do well outside the drawer. The blade is rather thick at the spine, but it is also wide and has full flat grind. So - how does it cut?

Shirogorov Hati, F3 or F95
OK, these guys do not really need much to ask about - there is overwhelmingly positive feedback. I just wanted to make it clear that they are in the pool even if on the expensive side.

Your personal experience with any of these knives would be greatly appreciated :thumbup: Of course, if you think that I have missed some obvious choice (I do not mean Sebenza here )

Thank you

 

[Spinny]

Of the knives you mention I've got a Sebenza 21 and a Lionsteel TM-1. They are very different knives. I have the Micarta version. Got it because, like you said, didn't see the value in spending a LOT more money for the same knife with a different (CF) handle material. The blade slices surprisingly well. Yes, it's a thick blade stock, but the high flat grind means that the angles for the primary and secondary bevels can still get relatively shallow. The handle feels like that of a fixed blade knife. In the way it is 3D contoured and fills your hand. For extended use, I much prefer the TM1 over the Sebenza. For carrying in my pocket, it's a toss up. The Sebensa rides thinner and narrower, but has a denser feel to it. The TM1 is very light for it's size and beefiness, but it definitely takes up more pocket space. TM1 also has a deep carry clip, though my opinion is that the clip is disproportionately small for the size of the knife. Fit and Finish, both are excellent, but I can't say the TM1 is better than the Reeve--hard to improve on perfection. Last note, my Sebenza seems to be dull all the time...and not because I use it more. Just that the steel (S35VN) seems to dull almost on it's own. The Sleipner steel in my experience is both easier to sharpen and holds an edge better than Reeve's S35VN. Other maker's S35VN I've found to hold up better, just Reeve's is known to be on the softer side.

 

[shady A.M.]

My opinion is, Shiro Hati all the way. Even a used one is a good deal. The F3 is thicker and beefier than the Hati or 95 models. Just something to think about.

 

[1SHOT1KILL]

I edc a Shirogorov 95T in Elmax. I absolutely love it. It does everything a knife should...it cuts things I like the ffg blade and appreciate the fact that it flies open. It really is as smooth as butter. There is plenty of grip to it and it is easy to grab from my pocket due to the milling of the "T" pattern. A knife you may have overlooked would be a Southard Tolk. I edc one of those as well. Not as refined as my Shiro, but it's no slouch either. It runs on bearings and employs XHP steel for your cutting pleasure.

 

[Hauling]

I edc a Shirogorov 95T in Elmax. I absolutely love it. It does everything a knife should...it cuts things I like the ffg blade and appreciate the fact that it flies open. It really is as smooth as butter. There is plenty of grip to it and it is easy to grab from my pocket due to the milling of the "T" pattern. A knife you may have overlooked would be a Southard Tolk. I edc one of those as well. Not as refined as my Shiro, but it's no slouch either. It runs on bearings and employs XHP steel for your cutting pleasure.

that dainty tip though, reason why I let my Shirogorov go, but I agree on every other aspect, such a nice flipper. Of all the ones mentioned I'd stick with the sebenza 21 honestly.

 

[1SHOT1KILL]

From someone who has had a 21, a 25 and now a Shiro. The tip has never been an issue or a problem. If I think I'm going to need a knife that might be more "hard use" oriented, I have a Les George Talos.

 

[Hauling]

I'm not even trying to imply it is a problem, never heard of one either, just bugged me is all.

 

[ginaz]

the Akribis is a very good slicer. It doesn't get much pocket time with me because it just doesn't ride that well in my pocket. Spartan's heat-treat seems pretty good as well

 

[matus]

Thank you guys! This is exactly what I was hoping to hear/learn.

TM-1 sounds like I will need to try it

Shiro F3 - I did not know it has a thicker blade - I will concentrate on Hati and 95 then.

Sounthard Tolk - I actually just forgot to add it to the list. It is definitely knife that I would be interested in,

Please keep it coming!

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Spartan Blades Akribis- I've been interested in these too, but I cant seem to pull the trigger on one. I've heard that disassembly voids warranty:thumbdn:

Carson Tech Lab Griffin- I have a Carson Boiling flipper, and it's an outstanding knife. I could imagine that the Griffin would be a great knife also!

Freeman 451 button lock flipper- No experience whatsoever, interesting though!

LionSteel TM1- With its one-piece handle, it makes for a very unique design. Just don't forget it is a back-lock, and may require 2 hand closing (or be slower with 1 hand). The quality is definately up there!

Zero Tolerance 0452 CF- If you want to focus on high end knives, I'd stay away from ZT. I'm a bit biased towards the brand though, so if you really like it, get it.

Matt Diskin Volcan flipper- I have a Diskin Fire and it's an amazing knife. A member who's opinion I respect (Charr) has spoken highly of this knife, so I'm sure it would be great.

Shirogorov Hati, F3 or F95- Everyone speaks highly of these, and again, Charr speaks highly of Shirogorov, so I trust him when he says they are great knives.

Sorry for the limited experience, I thought I'd give my input though. When I'm unsure of something, the more input, the better. One maker you could add to the list is André Thorburn. He makes some great stuff, look him up

I also wouldn't worry too much about how they cut. I feel that that can be an issue when looking at some of the thicker "overbuilt" folders like Medford and Direware. Your options should all cut pretty well.

 

[matus]

BB, your input is very much appreciated - in particular on the TM1 and Carson Tech Labs.

I am actually fine with 2 hand closing and ability to flip-open the knife is also secondary to me (though it is cool )

 

[Sonnydaze]

Thank you guys! Sounthard Tolk - It is definitely knife that I would be interested in,

------------------------------------------------------------
One of my posts from a different thread...where one fellow reco's the TOLK over the AVO.

...his quote..."Tolk however is a step above the Avo and is a much better comparison to Reeves."

MY RESPONSE...with pics...

A step above in size...but not in quality and hand-fit...
This is pretty accurate and precisely WHY I chose one over the other.
I am one of the minority that cannot hold onto the small Seb...and the LARGE Seb is too large for my hand.
Consider three over-all-lengths (open blade)...i.e. AVO = 7.8" OAL... Large Sebbie is 8.34"... TOLK = 8.75" OAL.

Pretty obvious that the TOLK, while a fine folder, is MUCH too long for my hand-size.
Included this pic again to show my AVO...comfortably smaller than the large Sebbie...and perfect for my hand-size.
I purchased this AVO about Jan 1, and have carried it, exclusively, every day of this year... I really enjoy this folder....

[/QUOTE]

 

[Sikael]

My top recommendation is the Shirogorov, without a doubt, and the Model 95 in particular. I have two, a 95T in S30V and a 95 in Elmax. They're the best slicers I've owned, due primarily to the FFG, which (along with the CRK HHG), is the best all around grind for most cutting tasks. Other grinds excel in tasks an FFG wouldn't, obviously, especially in terms of toughness, tip strength, shaving, shallow slicing, etc.

Like the Spyderco FFG, the Shirogorov grind has a long distal taper, culminating in a very fine tip. But unlike the Spyderco FFG, the distal taper is not straight, but gently curved, meaning the spine is thicker until it nears the tip, providing extra strength. But... I wouldn't try popping beer caps or prying open paint-cans with it. I don't want or need my knife to be a pry-bar.

The Mod 95's ruined me for other knives, excepting customs and a couple outstanding makers like Rockstead (worth checking out, and worth adding to your list, the Hizen, Shin, and Shun in particular) and Direware. I was amazed by the Mod 95 when I first got it, so much so I bought another variety -- the 95T -- the next week. Every midtech I've owned was disappointing. The 95's didn't cost much more, but were on a completely different level in every way... it was like finally, this is the knife I've been looking for all this time. When I was not long into knives, I thought the Sebenza would be that knife, but... no. I love it, but not even close, IMO.

The Shirogorov F3 has a different clip and it's a liner-lock, but is another must-get for me. The blade is identical to the 95. Hold out for carbon fiber, anodized liners, and SRBS.

The Hati in G-10 can be had for cheaper, but I'd recommend waiting for one on bearings... it's almost the same knife as the 95, but Ha(lf)Ti.

The Shirogorov 111 is bigger than the 95 -- both numbers refer to blade length -- larger and it has a more aggressive profile; hold out for CF and MRBS, M390.

The ZT 0452CF is a great knife; I never thought of it as a slicer, but it has great flipping action. For hard use, it might be prone to having the lockbar pushed in and getting stuck, or that might be a random defect. Tightening the pivot works sometimes.

The Spartan Blades Akribis -- never owned one, never would. Poorly designed, ugly... I dislike the blade to handle ratio, and the look.

I've never owned a Diskin, either, but that's one on my list too, actually. The Vulcan Flipper, IMO is a great value, an awesome design, perfect choice of materials. Everything I see and hear of it is very positive, and I think the price will be going up considerably fairly soon.

Carson Tech Labs (Boiling, Griffin)... no idea, but I like a lot of what I've seen. Sealed bearings, lock-bar innovations -- CTL and Reate are well on their way to destroying negative perceptions of Chinese knife-makers... a bit over-priced, maybe, but not badly so.

 

[Sikael]

Spartan Blades Akribis- I've been interested in these too, but I cant seem to pull the trigger on one. I've heard that disassembly voids warranty:thumbdn:

Carson Tech Lab Griffin- I have a Carson Boiling flipper, and it's an outstanding knife. I could imagine that the Griffin would be a great knife also!

Freeman 451 button lock flipper- No experience whatsoever, interesting though!

LionSteel TM1- With its one-piece handle, it makes for a very unique design. Just don't forget it is a back-lock, and may require 2 hand closing (or be slower with 1 hand). The quality is definately up there!

Zero Tolerance 0452 CF- If you want to focus on high end knives, I'd stay away from ZT. I'm a bit biased towards the brand though, so if you really like it, get it.

Matt Diskin Volcan flipper- I have a Diskin Fire and it's an amazing knife. A member who's opinion I respect (Charr) has spoken highly of this knife, so I'm sure it would be great.

Shirogorov Hati, F3 or F95- Everyone speaks highly of these, and again, Charr speaks highly of Shirogorov, so I trust him when he says they are great knives.

Sorry for the limited experience, I thought I'd give my input though. When I'm unsure of something, the more input, the better. One maker you could add to the list is André Thorburn. He makes some great stuff, look him up

I also wouldn't worry too much about how they cut. I feel that that can be an issue when looking at some of the thicker "overbuilt" folders like Medford and Direware. Your options should all cut pretty well.

Good info :thumbup:. I should have read the whole thread, because you've summed it up nicely.

I thought you might have suggested Rockstead along with Andre Thorburn. Your endorsement in the RS thread a few days ago, along with the hard-use, sharpening and maintenance experience, sold me even further on Rockstead. Previous adulation has come from Jim Skelton, et al, which doesn't say much about performance.

When it comes to cutting (which is kind of important with knives ), Rockstead are oft-mentioned as the best around, along with custom makers like Phil Wilson, Tom Krein, Big Chris, and Gayle Bradley. That's impressive company.

 

[1SHOT1KILL]

Here's a picture for some size comparison, for those parties that may be interested.

PM2
XM 18 3.5"
Shiro 95T
Tolk
Norseman
Talos
ZT 0561 (with CF scale)

 

[Sikael]

Here's a picture for some size comparison, for those parties that may be interested.

PM2
XM 18 3.5"
Shiro 95T
Tolk
Norseman
Talos
ZT 0561 (with CF scale)

:thumbup::thumbup:Very nice assortment. I'd still like to get a Grimsmo Norseman, I like that eccentric, modified tanto profile. I'm interested in seeing how the Rask turns out, too, but the prototype had a couple features I wasn't sure about... features I can't recall right now.

How does the Norseman compare with the 95T?

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Good info :thumbup:. I should have read the whole thread, because you've summed it up nicely.

I thought you might have suggested Rockstead along with Andre Thorburn. Your endorsement in the RS thread a few days ago, along with the hard-use, sharpening and maintenance experience, sold me even further on Rockstead. Previous adulation has come from Jim Skelton, et al, which doesn't say much about performance.

When it comes to cutting (which is kind of important with knives ), Rockstead are oft-mentioned as the best around, along with custom makers like Phil Wilson, Tom Krein, Big Chris, and Gayle Bradley. That's impressive company.

Thanks Brother!

Gayle Bradley... I really need to hit him up for a custom! He has been a maker I've had interest in for a long time, and I often forget about his work. I'd add him to the list, especially if 2-hand opening/closing isn't a concern for OP.

André makes a hell of a knife, and he's at the top of OP's budget (going by what he said about the Diskin) and is typically in the $700+ range. This is why I didn't recomend Rockstead, since OP seems to want something with a 3.5" blade. A Rockstead in that size is typically around $850 to $1,000+ That's a lot of dough, but they are totally worth it to me.

Another thing about Rockstead, is if one plans on using it, it would be best to understand edge geometry very well. You can't go sharpening these on a Sharpmaker, it must be free handed and done in a very specific way. The grind goes from 30 inclusive to 24 inclusive when approaching the tip, so it takes a good hand to sharpen such a knife. As Haze mentioned, it would be very easy to ruin the finish and also the grind as well. I'm not saying you guys can't sharpen a knife, but don't expect it to be as simple as sharpening a typical hollow/flat grind knife. I'd only recomend one if the users free-hand sharpening skills are above average.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Another thing, is if 2-hand opening/closing isn't an issue than consider a traditional knife OP.

There are a lot of makers out there, but one that I have had personal experience with is Jim Dunlap. He's a really great guy and made me a couple customs with marble carbon fiber. It was cool to know that I was the first person to show Jim marble CF and also provide him with it. I really love the 2 pictured below, and he could make something similar on request.

Mike Alsdorf is another maker with unique style, and is really humbling to talk to. He's making me a knife right now, so I have yet to experience his work. I'll be getting a slipjoint with Black Lip Pearl inlays, similar to what is pictured below except with a slightly different inlay pattern. Mike makes some really elegant looking knives!

Jim's work

Mike's work

 

[Sikael]

Thanks Brother!

Gayle Bradley... I really need to hit him up for a custom! He has been a maker I've had interest in for a long time, and I often forget about his work. I'd add him to the list, especially if 2-hand opening/closing isn't a concern for OP.

André makes a hell of a knife, and he's at the top of OP's budget (going by what he said about the Diskin) and is typically in the $700+ range. This is why I didn't recomend Rockstead, since OP seems to want something with a 3.5" blade. A Rockstead in that size is typically around $850 to $1,000+ That's a lot of dough, but they are totally worth it to me.

Another thing about Rockstead, is if one plans on using it, it would be best to understand edge geometry very well. You can't go sharpening these on a Sharpmaker, it must be free handed and done in a very specific way. The grind goes from 30 inclusive to 24 inclusive when approaching the tip, so it takes a good hand to sharpen such a knife. As Haze mentioned, it would be very easy to ruin the finish and also the grind as well. I'm not saying you guys can't sharpen a knife, but don't expect it to be as simple as sharpening a typical hollow/flat grind knife. I'd only recomend one if the users free-hand sharpening skills are above average.

All excellent points. My biggest concern with RS (besides the price, and the handles, which are growing on me) is messing up that edge and beautiful finish. I'm confident enough with most of my knives, but I only started taking sharpening -- and knives -- seriously about a year or so ago (really, in the last several months). One of the reasons I came to BF was for sharpening tips, and there's plenty.

So... I don't plan on screwing up a 900$ Hizen . That's way more money than I can shrug off. I've bookmarked that thread, to try out the method you described using the drywall sander with the foam backing and 2000-grit paper (combined with denim strop, Al-O) -- very smart way to deal with sharpening a convex edge freehand. I plan on developing my freehand skills on a couple knives I don't mind donating to this experiment; at the worst, they'll have a not-so even edge. Hopefully I'll get the hang of it, then I'll buy the knife. If I don't get the hang of it... Meh. More Shirogorov, I guess.

Going by what Haze mentioned, it sounds like some people think that because a Rockstead can cut like crazy, it'll never get dull and it's indestructible. But no. A Ferrari might be one of the fastest cars on the road, but that doesn't make it easier to take care of, or cheaper to run. Quite the opposite. Expensive, performance driven tools and technologies usually come with more responsibility, not less.

 

[matus]

You guys rock! :thumbup:

Now, a lot of interesting info has been shared - it generated a few comments and question on my side.

Southard Avo is a cool knife, but I think I would prefer the blade shape and size of the Tolk.

First of all - all this feedback on Shirogorov really pushes me there. I am actually hoping to get by with a bit cheaper knife, but that is proving more difficult than I have expected. I really like the look of colored G10 Hati, but that 3D shaped Ti scales of the 95T model (in particular when 2-color toned) are really cool. The 111 model looks like longer 95, but it may be too large for my hand.

Rockstead knives - yes - I am aware of them and there is even a distributor in Germany. I would even go as far as say that I would be able to sharpen then, but those polished wide bevels would turn into a bit of a mess - not that I would mind - knives are made to be used. But I am not sure that 67HRC ZDP is ideal for an all around outdoor knife. Also - the blade is 3.7mm thick, but the bevel goes only up to about 1/2 of the blade. That makes the angle seem rather larger - in particular when compared to most of the knives in questions. Still - very tempting knives. Maybe I will gather the courage to order one and check it out (and very carefully send it back). The Higo with ironwood scales looks awesome ... but it costs 1100€ ... Still - I am going to read a little more about these ...

Carson Tech Labs - after some more browsing it seems like they may have been working for/with (?) Real Steel who I am not sure still actively make knives and if they do - I do not know whether the knives are made still the same way as Carson Tech Labs did. I have send them an email - let's see what will come out of it. But I am very curios about the Griffin model.

Matt Diskin Vulcan flipper - I still hope to hear some first-hand experience

On that 2 hand opening - while I do not mind, I am not quite after a classical folder.

EDIT: I have just checked out the Rockstead webpage - they have 3 new models coming out - the SHUN looks incredible. I do not even want to know the price ...