A folder's potential role in subduing animal attacks?

knife saber said:
(Sorry for the long post. But I love off-beat topics like this one - It's about chimp fighting, for heaven's sake!)
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you weren't long-winded at all. i enjoyed your feedback!
 
knife saber said:
Just jumping in with an interesting piece of correspondence from a paleontologist:

"The important part about chimps that nobody has yet noted is the
evolutionary relationship between humans and chimps. Accepting all
the caveats that humans do not come directly from chimps and all that
jazz, humans have undergone paedomorphosis compared to chimps.

Paedomorphosis means that we come to full maturity in all ways while
not completing all of the steps of development that a chimp would go
through. For instance, if you were to take a picture of a young
child's face and "map" points on a grid (nose, mouth, chin, etc.) you
would find that those points match up very well with where the same
points would match on a baby chimp.

Now, if you look at how these points change with time you would notice
that they both go through similar changes, except for the human
changes stop much earlier. Chimp faces would continue to develop past
that point. The reason that adult faces look different than
children's faces is that adults look more apelike. You can check this
using a thin-plate spline for analysis, just type it into google.

Another consequence of this is muscle development. You never really
complete the muscle development that would happen later in life for a
chimp as your body stops short of it. You simply don't have the
tissue there to do it and the muscle tissue isn't nearly as dense and
efficient. An untrained chimpanzee can not move and easily pull over
300 lbs along the ground with one arm. Any human would have to train
for months or years to accomplish the same thing, and even then you
would see much larger amounts of muscle tissue (bulging biceps and the
like) for the chimp none of that is needed. Consequently, full grown
chimps can easily overpower a man without really even trying that
hard, and can often do it by accident.

All of that physical development that the chimp gains humans bypass in
order to keep the brain growing it's thought. This possible explains
why even though you finish growing at around 18-20 your brain
continues to develop until 25 and your thought process continues to
change up until that point. There is some debate over whether brain
development happens faster in women than men, but I digress.

[/The short of it: full grown humans are the equivalent of juvenile
chimps. Plan your monkey boxing demonstrations accordingly."]


This came from the National Review website, of all places, and is a very interesting read. For those of you who are pressed for time, here's the gist: Chimpanzees, for all their similarities to humans, are quite different developmentally. They continue to develop well past the point where a human is considered "fully mature." Their muscles are denser and more efficient than fully matured human muscles. Even if a human can outlift a monkey, the use of those muscles in combative situations can only be trained into a human, while a chimp *naturally* knows how to fight - viciously, efficiently, and in some significant fraction of fights, successfully.

All human martial arts training flies in the face of thousands of years of self-domestication. We have no natural weapons (claws, fangs, talons, horns, etc.), and all human disciplines dedicated to creating "fighting machines" assume that other humans are the enemy. Strictly speaking, it's like breeding a toy poodle to fight other toy poodles. You wouldn't bet on the toy poodle if the opponent was a pitbull, would you?

Also, what has intellgence to do with a fight for survival? Looking for an escape route, possibly. I doubt that many humans have the sheer cold-bloodedness required to be a tactical computer when a pissed-off chimp is trying to eat your face. Perhaps you could look around for a weapon while the chimp uses the ones he was born with to maul you. Intelligence is great for keeping you out of a fight with a wild animal - if you have the misfortune to get into one despite that, intelligence isn't going to do much unless you're very lucky.

I'm sure there are people who can outdo chimpanzees in feats of pure strength. The bodybuilder here who mentioned previously that he could deadlift 650 pounds, for example. But between a man who can lift 650 pounds with some (much? I wouldn't know) exertion and a chimp who can pull 300 pounds along the ground with only his arm, I'd rather be thrown in a cage with the man.

As for the assistance a knife might provide, I won't say anything. I don't know how tough a chimp's skin is, or anything else about a chimp's anatomy. Certainly they might be vulnerable to slashes or stabs in a certain region, but if I had the wherewithal to find out a chimps sensitive areas I'd rather use my resources to find out the chimpanzee gesture for absolute submission and learn how to do that. I'd rather lose my pride than my balls to a chimp.


(Sorry for the long post. But I love off-beat topics like this one - It's about chimp fighting, for heaven's sake!)
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I said in an earlier post that domesticated dogs have gone through a process called Neoteny, whereby, through thousands of generations adult characteristics are diminished in the species and juvenile characteristics are accentuated, resulting in a sexually mature puppy, for all intents and purposes. This is why we are able to keep and easily subdue dogs in our homes without, for the most part, fear of being attacked and eaten by our pets. You can take a Wolf pup from the wild and try to raise it. But, once it reaches a point of sexual maturity, the puppy-like characteristics disappear, and you end up with an animal that is uncontrollable by humans. It reverts back to "wild." Same with jungle cats, etc. Reference Sigfried and Roy.

Human beings have gone through a similar process of Neoteny. The process of "domestication" breeds many adult characteristics out of human beings and leaves many juvenile characteristics in their place. So, physiologically, behaviorally, and mentally we are much more childlike than would have been a Cro Magnon man, or even more so, a Neanderthal.

Now, put a Neanderthal up against a Chimpanzee and I would wager on the Neanderthal to win the fight. He would have been much more capable physiologically and mentally to deal with a life and death struggle with a small similarly built wild creature. Now, a Sabertooth Tiger would be another story...
 
I hate chimps. Their nothing but human wannabes. They seem to have a chip on their shoulder because they missed that final link. :D
 
madcap_magician said:
LOL, this is a great post!

Seriously though, don't count on winning against large and strong animals with a knife. All I have to say is that chimps aren't stupid, and a human who would go out of his way to see if he can kill one with a knife most definitely is...

... but if he persists in his foolishness, then I would advise him to kill the damn thing fast, because he's doubly foolish if he thinks the chimp would give him a second chance to hit a vital spot. Kill it in one hit, or you'll have a very pissed off monkey boy who will probably rip off your knife arm and beat you to death with it.
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My interpretation of the scenario is this;

IF you were in a mode where you perceived that there is a danger, and could bring any weapon you had at hand to the ready, be it either knife, stick, gun, nail clippers, whatever, then you MIGHT be able to meet an attack with some effect, and obtain a different result.

HOWEVER, not being ready for any incident, being relaxed and unaware of things going on around you, could anyone really expect a change the in the outcome. We're talking about an ambush here, makes no difference whether the victims are young or old, fit or feeble.

It might cause some alarm if I went everywhere with knife drawn and at a fighting posture. Knife nuts would probably call the guys with the white coats to take me away.

'Course, I could be wrong!


Thomas
 
I EDC a Military and I think I could cut the ---- out of something! One of the reasons I carry it is for defense against dogs, If you can get your weak arm in their mouth and use your strong arm to cut the guts open, I think the Chimp would ----himself but I also agree the Man would have serious injurys and if there are two chimps, may fall out from the pain of bites and blood loss.
 
RickJ said:
I EDC a Military and I think I could cut the ---- out of something! One of the reasons I carry it is for defense against dogs, If you can get your weak arm in their mouth and use your strong arm to cut the guts open, I think the Chimp would ----himself but I also agree the Man would have serious injurys and if there are two chimps, may fall out from the pain of bites and blood loss.
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The problem with this tactic is that a full-grown chimp could, having your weak arm between his teeth, and therefore in his power, could then proceed to rip your arm off, quite literally.

I still don't know what it would take in terms of knife injuries to stop a chimp. Short of a .45 to the center of mass, disembowling the animal seems like it might work - if the animal allows you to get that close. Also, take this into consideration - a dog has four legs, but a chimp has (to put it really simply) four arms. Each of those arms is probably stronger than each of yours. I personally wouldn't count on being able to get inside the chimp's reach (which you'd have to do to disembowel him) and not be immediately overwhelmed. Humans can defeat large, mean, strong, vicious, instinctually combative wild animals in many effective ways. Close quarters comabt is generally not one of them.
 
I don't think disemboweling a chimp is really what the "human with knife camp" is going for. I can't think of any animal in the 200lb. range that can't be killed with a single blow from a 4" blade - sure it may be a very lucky blow, but it's still very possible.

Knife saber, this is why time is so critical. How long would it take a chimp to tear off your arm? The man attacked still had both of his arms and I'm not sure if they ended up chewing on his ankle to get his foot off or not. A person that was armed and aware could get in quite a few stabs and slashes before being overwhelmed, no not perfectly placed strategic cuts to disembowel a chimp but enough frantic slashing and stabbing to do some major damage.

Zoo ninjas of the world UNITE!
 
SDDLUP said:
How long would it take a chimp to tear off your arm? The man attacked still had both of his arms and I'm not sure if they ended up chewing on his ankle to get his foot off or not. A person that was armed and aware could get in quite a few stabs and slashes before being overwhelmed, no not perfectly placed strategic cuts to disembowel a chimp but enough frantic slashing and stabbing to do some major damage.

Zoo ninjas of the world UNITE!
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Your point about getting a few frantic shots in is exactly in line with my thinking. Generally, there seems to be an attitude among some that an animal attack can be handled in much the same manner as a training hall fight - where the other person can be expected to attack you in certain predictable ways. In a chimp, you face an adversary against whom whatever tactical training you might have for combat against humans simply cannot be expected to work. Getting some frantic blows in, and lucking out by hitting an eye, or maybe the jugular vein, is really the best you can expect. I have this image of a man standing in front of an angry chimp, taking his best defensive stance.... who then proceeds to have his kneecaps bitten off because his opponent is 1.) stronger and faster than a human 2.) holds himself and moves in a manner no human does and finally 3.) doesn't react to human attack patterns the way a human would.

So... where are they passing out the leopard-spotted ninja outfits? Though I'd like something tiger-striped myself...
 
knife saber said:
So... where are they passing out the leopard-spotted ninja outfits? Though I'd like something tiger-striped myself...
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nah man, those prints are sooooo late 70's early 80's. you wanna at least go with something like desert sand. and skip the fringe, you might end up looking like bon jovi.
 
I would just like to clear up a little something.

Gorillas are not dangerous at all. They are huge, they are scary. But they are just all hot air. They'll charge you full out huffing and puffing and beating it's chest, but it won't hit you.

Meanwhile Chimpanzees might look all cute and can be trained, they are nastier then some Lions. Earlier in this century when Gorillas first made their appearances at zoos, there were large barriers around the gorilla cages. People were afraid to go near them. But then again, the barrier between the Chimp cage was just the space imbetween the bars. Many times women would go up with babies in their hands. The chimpanzees would waddle up to the cage, grab the baby, then ate them.
 
I have friend who was a animal keeper at the San Diego Zoo. He once told me of a young male chimpanzee that would take a swing at a large metal post in the enclosure. By the end of one year, the metal post was completely bent at a 90 degree angle. This from an immature chimp.
 
I don't know in this situation if a knife would have helped, chimps are predatory they will hunt and kill and eat smaller monkeys. Chimp bands have been known to wage war on each other. These wars often involve one band using several individuals to ambush and kill a single male from the other band.
Chimps also have tremendous hand and arm strength when compared to humans.
Having said that a couple of years ago a hiker on Vancouver Island was attacked from behind by a cougar. While being attacked he managed to take his buck 110 folder out of it's sheath, open it and kill the cougar. He suffered a number of injuries and almost died from them. Luckily he recieved first aid and medical treatment soon after the attack. When interviewed he said the only thing he would have done diferent is get a folder that can be opened one handed, because he felt that trying to open the knife with two hands caused him to monentarily stop defending himself.
If I remember right this guy was in his 50's
 
SDDLUP said:
Knife saber, this is why time is so critical. How long would it take a chimp to tear off your arm? The man attacked still had both of his arms
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But none of his fingers. The chimps went for the hands first, as they went to the ground. Very first thing gone - thumb. Please show me the thumbless technique to access and fight with your knife.
 
True story: I went to zoo last weekend. Carried my Benchmade 806. NONE of the animals, even the elephants, so much as gave me a dirty look.

So there you have it, my ridiculous contribution to this ridiculous thread.
 
Just one more comment, besides I love this thread it gets a man to thinking how fragile life is and to be always aware. Any way did you notice in the story the chimps crippled him from running by removing his ankle, then removed his ability to grasp or punch by removing his fingers and they tore off his **** and ripped an eye out. These animals are smart and knew just how to attack so that there would be no defence. I am taking no chances if it came to animals, I have children and it would kill me to see them injured or killed. So, i say the best defence is a good aware offence. Thanks. :D :D
 
Ritt said:
True story: I went to zoo last weekend. Carried my Benchmade 806. NONE of the animals, even the elephants, so much as gave me a dirty look.

So there you have it, my ridiculous contribution to this ridiculous thread.
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They were probably fingering their Sebenzas and were gong to tell you to get one :D.
 
Ritt said:
True story: I went to zoo last weekend. Carried my Benchmade 806. NONE of the animals, even the elephants, so much as gave me a dirty look.

So there you have it, my ridiculous contribution to this ridiculous thread.
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that's ridiculous.
 
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