a heavy tool for survivng th first 24

good post, the only thing i noticed was, If your training, train with what you would have on you if it really happened. If you always have a big chopper, then train with that. If you EDC a belt knife, train with that. Still better to go out and get done than not at all.
 
I keep my 19" GB in the vehicle, on the ATV when I ride and in my pack when I hike. That, combined with a small fixed blade, gives me great confidence in handling the unexpected.
2Door
 
Where would you be that is not in the wilderness that would force your EDC into wilderness survival gear?

Not sure I understand why you ask the question. They chose to go out without big tools for some reason, presumably not to prove that you should always have a chopper on you. I don't carry an axe or big chopper every time I step off of pavement. If I were heading out for a few days, then yes. An hour-long stroll could turn into a survival situation.
 
Bushcrafting is on purpose, survival is by accident. You might take an axe on a bushcrafting excusion to make life easier, but it's kind of hard to EDC an axe or really big knife just in case you end up stuck in the wilderness.

My son and I have spent several overnights with only our EDC knives, an Altoid size survival kit and a stainless steel cup. I carry a Benchmade mini Ruckus and he carries a Doug Ritter Benchmade.
I must say a couple of these nights were extremely uncomfortable and LONG but we did alright.

I know I sound weird but I carry the hatchet and Kephart in my picture above in my briefcase most days. Of course I don't do much flying or trips to the court house.

LOL
 
Historically for the most part I have preferred a medium sized knife with a good point for a "one-tool-only" scenario. Big enough to do some good bit still small enough to be tucked a way in a pack if needs be. The Becker BK7 probably filled that roll about as well as any knife ever could for me. I didn't like small machetes because of the blunt tips on the ones I found. Recently I got a Barong shaped Fiddleback machete with a 12" blade and a long handle that totally changed my perspective. It's light but the 0.120" blade has decent weight and chops very well yet still gives me a nice sharp point to work with. While I have reached a point where I'd really rather have my chosen trios of tools...if I knew I was heading to the bush and could only take one knife that would be the knife I would take. I would love to have the same exact design in 1/8" or 5/32 5160. However if it were to be as earlier in my life and a mix of wilderness and urban survival I'd take something smaller...the largest being something like the TOPS Black Star I have for strength yet having the ability discrete when necessary, and the smallest being something along the lines of the HEST I edc.
 
My standard 3 are my BK9/Machete (pick one), a 4-5" belt knife, EsKabar (neck knife) and a reserve busher in my bag, recently, my FBF Hunter. Before that it was an ESEE3 or 4. Granted, thats alot of steel, but my BK9/'Chete rides in the pack, in a quick grab area, my belt knife, well, my belt. Necker gets a lashing to the pack strap, or carried in a quick shoulder rig. My back up stays in the bag until I WANT to use it.

If I could only have one, it would be the BK2. It can do most of the work of the larger and smaller blades (mostly) and can take the abuse so I wouldn't have to worry about it gettin' broken

I can make a shelter with my BK2, but it a helluva lot easier with my BK9.

Moose
 
G'day RR



.... I was surprised by how much I longed for a large working knife, axe or similar tool.. THere was allot of chopping and splitting (it had rained hard the day before) that needed to be done...I read somewhere that the 2 things most indigenous people living abo lifestyles are almost never without are a metal pot and a large working knife (or axe)
after this experience I can understand why..


......It seems in traditional bush craft the emphasis seems to be on a detail knife ( which I am a big fan of) but in the short term survival scenario the specificity of the 4 inch belt knife is trumped by a larger work horse or at least so far in my limited experience. ..
Just wanted to collect some thoughts based on my observations, and your experiences.


For many years, whenever the question appeared on internet forums about "what 3 items I would limit myself to" I have answered that I would take a billy (a metal pot that can be used for boling), a first aid kit & a 4 inch blade or hatchet. :thumbup:


To be honest, I have been laughed at by the very people who have shown zero evidence that they actually venture off the concrete :D

I would think that your recent experience has taught you the importance of listening to people who walk the walk, rather than those who merely "talk the talk" :thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick :D
 
Well, here's a couple of 8" Busse designs from the last year or two, a NMSFNO and a DSSF. Very nice knives for the middle of nowhere or just a walk.

 
Big knives are grat.
I've recently played with a Cold Steel San Mai III Trail Master and it's a remarkable blade ;)
It chops like a total beast,is very strong but also cuts and whittles like a much smaller and thinner knife.The laminated stanless San Mai III steel is also quite impressive - after all the hard beating on hardwood it continued to shave arm hair :thumbup: That's the KNIFE for me and I have immediately ordered one.Can't wait untill it arrives :D:D
 
I probably use a big knife or machete 90% of the time. I feel confined with just a small knife.
 
You should repeat this test will only your large knife and see how well you fare. A good 4" to 5" blade will do everything that needs done. Can the same be said about a large knife? Is it worth having a tool that works the first 24 hours and then is a pain your remaining days spend in the woods? Only you can answer that based on your skills.

If that turns out to be the case you could try putting the largest folder you can find in your tin.
 
Your post reminds me once again that semantics exacts aside “survival” and “bushcraft [or period reenactment for that matter]” whilst sometimes seeming to overlap often have bugger all to do with each other.

First things first, and I'll address you observations about 24hr survival and the advantage of a heavier duty cutting tool over a smaller one. I totally agree. My love for the golok is no secret and if I wind in a saw and pruning shears [which I often do], that's the fastest and most efficient combination I can possibly imagine having over a range of scenarios -[I'll leave the ax idea out for now because I find them limited in their versatility, although I sometimes use those too]. With the golok I've obviously got more brute power when it comes to working wood relative to what a small knife can do. It's also a vastly superior tool when it comes to harvesting bedding and thatching, two things I'm going to want huge piles of if I'm doing this with any degree of seriousness. Then there's the expanded capability for lifting turf or cutting bricks from a peat bog and all that. Although not directly applicable to me as I am here but I'd also add jungle, cutting and scraping at snow and ice blocks, or getting sanctuary from the sun amongst the thorny nastiness. These aspects of knife selection as they relate to survival are exactly the kinds of things I think about if one has the luxury of being able to pick a survival knife in advance. But then, and here's the essential bit as far as I'm concerned, with the luxury of prior warning you aren't really picking a survival knife, you are just picking a big knife. If you have picked correctly, as far as the knife aspect goes at least, you're just a bloke with a big working tool precluding a survival situation arising.

So, whilst I am in agreement with you on the size of the cutting tool we have also stumbled across the concept of prior knowledge and the implications of that. I wonder; with prior knowledge why would anyone artificially constrain themselves to trying to solve a possible 24hr survival situation with any kind of knife? Don't get me wrong I enjoy reading about a lot of what you do here and I do a whole lot of it myself. It is play and it is great fun. However, I am very aware when I am doing it that it holds zero relationship to my mindset as a survivor. I go to places where I perceive a genuine threat from cold and exposure and none of them involve trees. When I see trees I see comfort. I can relax and do things the hard way. I can artificially limit my choices to making shelters, warmth and maybe catching dinner using primitive methods. It's a doodle compared to clinging to a freezing lump of granite up above the tree line or being out on an exposed moor in the thick fog, with no trees, at a grovelling pace 'cos at any moment I could sink up to mah nether regions in a freezing concealed soup with sharp rocks in. Where even the dry ground is like a damp sponge [Lundhags boots]. In short, I see the ease of being in trees the very thing that allows me to play through wilfully handicapping myself to solving survival[ish] type scenarios by means of a big knife. Perhaps it is akin to the adrift raft survivor washing up on a beach and declaring “feksake, this isn't hard enough, I'm going to only use the one hand”.

To combat a genuine real deal situation where the goal was to avoid exposure for 24hrs my approach would soon see a lot of this woodsman mentality dumped. Fair is fair, and if I can have prior warning about the size of the knife I might prefer then I can have prior warning about other kit too. Instead of all the fun stuff playing with chopping, or bits of string, or rubbing sticks together, or making a bed 'cos I fancied a snooze, or learning how to tame my flatulence by recognising wild mint or whatever I'd be in the camp of the people that do this stuff in genuinely perilous conditions. As per mountain leadership training – 24hrs is a few hours in the bothy bag, hunkered over a night-light, sitting upright on the pack, bored stupid, with a few tarzan bars, strobe going, waiting to pop flares or smoke.

Like I said, I enjoy much of the primitive stuff, and some of the neo-bushcraft stuff, and much of what I do draws upon bushcraft-proper and survival techniques. Yet I am also very aware that when I am playing I am making arbitrary parameters of which using a knife as a solution is often one. Real deal survival awareness can be a different can of worms entirely. Mostly my approach is a mashup, and I like a bivvy and tarp not a bothy, practical stainless over retro-rusting, and I'll cook a squirrel and nettle stew thickened with instant potato over an open fire quite merrily, and so on. But when the subject of real world survival scenarios comes up it is time for me to shelve a lot of that in favour of what is optimal.

bothy-bags.gif

terra-nova-bothy-bag.gif
 
allot of good points coming up here.. in regards to prior knowledge.. I think if you carry a heavy cutting tool when out headed out for terrain where the potential exists.. That does not require foresight but merely a prepared mind set.. I carry pretty much the same kit whenever I go outdoors.. and there is Always a heavy cutting tool. ( bk7 at the small end, a khukri axe or hawk atthe other) this is the same whether out for a day hike, a practice session or a a few days...
and whilst I have no knowledge of any impending scenario... I feel a little but more prepared to handle it.
I guess my point is if getting lost or ending up in a situation where you might have to spend an unplanned time in the woods. for the bulk of emergent tasks a larger tool is beneficial.. so wouldn;t it make sense to incorporate such a tool in to your woods walking layout, in l;ieu of a more specialized tool?
 
Interesting. I saw a show once about an indigenous fellow who lived in the Amzon. His most prized and only pocession was an axe head. It was the only tool he had and needed. His clothes, his weapons, his food, his housing- everything he needed or used was made with that 1 simple tool.

It almost seemed like he had no need for anything else. If he could have- I wonder if he would have wanted anything else?

In a sense he had the perfect life because it was complete in its simplicity.
 
They chose to go out without big tools for some reason, presumably not to prove that you should always have a chopper on you.

Went out with Tonym for a project we are working on..the task at hand was to spend 24 hours in the bush with nothing but a knife
and what we could fit into an altoids tin.

Considering that it took nearly 3 hours to build their shelter it became apparent to me that a big knife / chopper would have been incredibly
useful for this application. Tony used his RC-5 which is a beast of a knife in itself but not what anyone would consider to be a true chopper.
He also demonstrated that by using the correct grip(s) and technique it could get the job done of that of a larger knife in an emergency.
 
Not sure I understand why you ask the question. They chose to go out without big tools for some reason, presumably not to prove that you should always have a chopper on you. I don't carry an axe or big chopper every time I step off of pavement. If I were heading out for a few days, then yes. An hour-long stroll could turn into a survival situation.

I asked because I figured that we'd gone over the fact that most people whop get themselves into real trouble are the ones that go out underequipped because it's "just a little day hike", and figured that we'd gotten out of that mindset.

Even if one is worried about weight, a machete is cheap, and very light, and would have made his life a lot more pleasant.
 
Where would you be that is not in the wilderness that would force your EDC into wilderness survival gear?

There's actually an episode of "I Shouldn't Be Alive" where a seasoned backpacker and ex-military chap goes out for a backpacking trip on a snow covered mountain. He does everything he's supposed to:

1. tells people where he's going
2. gives an ETA of when he'll return (I think it was 4 days)
3. has a pack full of gear
4. has experience hiking alone

While trying to reach the summit in one day, he decides it's getting dark too fast and crosses a stretch of open snow and back tracks to get down to some trees for shelter. Along the way back he is hit by not one, but TWO avalanches and the second one rips his pack right off his back and when he awakens he's left with nothing but what's on him and a broken pelvis.

So this would be a prime example of when a seasoned outdoorman is separated from his pack and left with his EDC and the clothes on his back.

Ps. Carry a One Hand Trekker and life will be easier :D
 
Great post, RR, and interesting observations! I haven't been able to do a trip like that, but your results make sense to me.

What I don't understand is why some people seem to think that there is some special merit in using a smaller knife instead of a large knife. If a large knife works better for some activities, why limit yourself to a lesser tool? It seems as if some people (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just observations from different places) leave the larger tools and force themselves to be proficient with smaller tools just to fit in with the popular paradigm. It reminds me of the threads where someone asks about the best 8-10 chopper and five people suggest a mora or Fallkniven F1. Moras are great knives - especially the Clipper - but they aren't a big knife and shouldn't be used for one. Nothing against small knives - my knives are all smaller, but I really want some larger ones for that kind of use.
 
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