A narrow escape on the AT...

[Codger_64]

Here is a harrowing story I ran across recently. I can just imagine how I would feel if it were my wife and daughter. I tried to edit the profanity, but if I missed some, please don't take offense.

We were sitting on the patio of my favorite Starbucks after lunch looking at the Appalachian Trail guide books.

“My pack is loaded. We would just need to throw some food in a bag and drive.”

“Let’s do it.”

So we headed out a bit late in the afternoon, for what we thought was going to be a fantastic adventure. Three hours later we were pulling into the very easy to find trailhead off of Washington Mountain Road.

We grabbed our packs, stuffed the guidebooks in the back and headed for the October Mountain shelter. It took us about two hours to make it to the shelter. We could see a fire burning in the firepit and we were excited that we had made it.

The first thing we saw after the fire was a large dog, laying quietly next to the picnic table. His owner was tending the fire.

It had started to get dark so we got out the flashlights and started to look around for a place to put the tent. The shelter sleeps 12 but the single occupant had spread his belongings throughout most of it. There were whiskey bottles lying on the shelter floor and he had Chinese takeout cartons covering the picnic tables.

“I’m Chris.”

We introduced ourselves. He suggested we set up in the loft and forget the tent given the fact that it was now completely dark. We thought that was a good idea and we went about getting our packs up there. He came over and asked us if we needed help lifting anything up to the loft. We set up our sleeping bags and then climbed down to make dinner. “Chris” was waiting at the bottom of the ladder with a joint. He offered it to me. I declined.

Once back at the picnic table “Chris” asked us if we wanted to share any of his takeout food. We thanked him but didn’t accept. He told us not to be shy, and to move his stuff around if we needed to. He continued to drink by the fire. He asked us if he could use our flashlight. We had a headlamp also so we gave it to him. He had to ask us several times how to turn it on and off, even though it was NOT difficult. He mumbled a lot. And he talked to himself, his dog, or people we just couldn’t see.

Still, I was unintimidated figuring it was probably just the result of the weed and alcohol, and he would be asleep soon. So we stayed.

We made mac and cheese over the little Pocket Rocket stove, had applesauce and Fig Newmans and talked between us. His fire had burned down considerably and he couldn’t seem to get it going again. My daughter, who is a good campfire starter, offered to help him get it going again. She went over and before too long it was blazing again. He got down off of the logs he was sitting on and stretched out in front of it. My daughter rejoined me at the table. We started cleaning up the cook set when he started in on us. He was mumbling so I didn’t understand it all, but my daughter heard a lot more than I did.

What I did hear was “You ladies need to shut the f**k up.” We were not being loud.


“I was planning on spending a quiet night alone here and you b**ches showed up. You need to get your a**es up into that loft and shut the f**k up.”

He called us a lot of names and made a lot of dirty comments.

That did not make me feel too confident at this point, but the alternative was to hike back out of the woods in the pitch dark and I didn’t want to do that. Not yet anyway. We cleaned our things up, put our food in the bear box and climbed up into the loft, trying to be as quiet as possible.

We turned my headlamp down to low and looked through a guidebook until he told us to “Shut the fucking light off, b**ch.” We did. At this point I am starting to get a little scared and my daughter is freaking out. I tell her to calm down, that there are two of us and only one of him and we are OK. We get in our sleeping bags and text each other back and fort because we cant talk. He came into the shelter and got into one of the bunks with his dog. And then it started…

“A fat chick thinks she is tougher than I am. I’ll show her who has the harder a**. Just wait.”


“I am going to f**k the hot chick, and kill the fat chick.”


“Do you want to be f**ked, b**ch?”

I didn’t hear everything else he said, but my daughter did. We both started shaking and sweating. I knew we couldn’t stay there. I unzipped the bag and started picking up whatever I could get back in the pack. I texted a couple of friends asking them if they were still awake to call the police and send them to the area. I didn’t think we were going to get out of the shelter. I put my keys, phone and light in my pocket in case we had to leave the packs and we climbed down, leaving a sleeping bag and a few other items behind.

He got out of his bunk and stood in front of us asking us where we were going. I told him we were leaving because there were too many mice in the shelter. He urinated in the shelter and said “Good luck with that.”


We had no idea which way the trail went. It was dark and we needed to get out of there as quickly as possible. He was out of the shelter and watching us and laughing. All I could find was a blue blaze and decided it didn’t matter at this point we would just follow whatever trail as long as we were away from him. He didn’t have a light. The batteries in the flashlight he had let him borrow had gone dead. We had only one headlamp. We held hands and just walked. We didn’t know if we were going in the right direction or the wrong one. We just walked. As fast as we f**king could.

Very, very soon we saw a white blaze painted on the tree. My daughter was falling apart fast. I kept repeating, “Only whisper. No talking. No stopping, only walking.” She slipped and fell down the side of a small cliff. I pulled her back up and reminded her we could make no noise and that we couldn’t stop. Only walk.

We figured out we were walking in the right direction when I spotted a perfect little white mushroom on the ground. I had pointed that mushroom out on the way in. That made us feel a little bit better.

We made it out of the woods in a little less than an hour. We didn’t stop running until we hit the car. Shaking and sweating and dizzy we unlocked it, got in and started the engine. I pulled out my phone and there was a text message from the state police telling me they were enroute and to call 911.

We pulled away from the trailhead, not wanting to wait and see if “Chris” followed us out of the woods. The police asked us to stop at a cross road and wait for them. Four state police cruisers arrived and two officers asked for a statement. They sent another group of officers onto the trail to locate him. They found his dog at the shelter but not him. A ways up the trail we had taken to get out of the woods is where they found him. He had been following us. The police said knew who he was and said that there had been problems on the trail with him before.

They took a bunch of information from us, advised me to get a hand gun or at least some pepper spray and escorted us to the Mass Pike.

It now being about 2am we decided to stop at a rest area and just sleep in the car.

Drove home early this morning.

* * *
Last night sucked bad.

It seriously has to be me. There has to be something wrong with ME for shit like this to ALWAYS happen. I cant go anywhere or do anything without there being drama.

I was dressed in hiking clothing, hair up, no makeup, boots..and I am fat...so I am betting I was the fat chick. My poor daughter is up in the loft with me and the asshole says "I am going to f**k the hot chick and kill the fat chick" and she says, "Mom, I know which is which and we need to get out of here."

I feel so bad about the whole thing. I told her I was sorry I brought her out there about a million times.

http://imaphoenixbaby.blogspot.com/2010/09/hell-at-october-mountain.html

Ok, so that is the story as the mother related it. No, it is not the type of incident that happens all of the time to most people. Perhaps it is just the proliferation of such stories and the speed in which they spread on this web thing Al Gore invented, but it does seem like such things (and much worse) are taking place in the backcountry more than they used to.

It seems that the police were good on their suggestions to the ladies, "...advised me to get a hand gun or at least some pepper spray..., but I have to wonder why such measures had not already occured to either the mother or the daughter.

Most of us, and apparently these two, go to the woods to relax and enjoy some peaceful surroundings. Danger from other people seldom enters our heads until it falls in our laps.

Several recent threads and some in the past (like the one about the girl murdered on the trail) bring to mind how dangerous predatory humans can be, and we discuss how best to prepare ourselves for that one in a thousand chance that we, someone we care about, or a perfect stranger we come upon, can be more prepared to escape/defend ourselves.

The officers suggested she get a gun. Of course that means also training in how and when to use it. This incident occured on a spur of the AT. Much of the AT goes thru jurisdictions where firearms are not permitted by State, County, or local law. And in any event is usually only lawful when accompanied by the proper government issued license.

The officers also suggested the alternative of her getting bear spray. I am not sure of the legal ramifications of posessing and using bear spray on a human. I can imagine that in the right circumstances it could be an effective non-lethat deterrant against an attacker, but used wrongly, could also incapacitate the defender. A certain percentage of people are, always have been and always will be too dumb to use it properly:

So last year I was walking out of my friendly neighborhood Scheels after buying my fishing license when I heard what sounded like a whole family screaming.

And it was.

In the parking lot was a family of 5 rolling on the ground and against their overloaded SUV in what looked like agony. Turns out, they had been on their way to Glacier NP when "Mom" suggested they stop and get some bear spray. "Dad" oblidges and then proceeds to spray it on his family like mosquito repelent. We called the ambulance and they were taken away. Good times...

From your perspective, is it wise to:
(A) pack a concealed gun for protection even where prohibited or unlicensed/without CCW permit?
(B) pack a cannister of bear spray in an area where bears are either non-existant or not a problem?
(C) advise someone else (such as the two ladies in the story) to acquire either protection without making further comment on training and legality?

I won't get into what I personally do for protection, but I do usually carry "something", particularly when I am out by myself (which is more often than not). I've never yet needed to use anything in self defense in the woods (but have several times in the city), however I feel like it is smart to be prepared to do so, whether to defend myself or others.

Michael

 

[sodak]

People like that usually die of lead poisoning... Just sayin'...

 

[Codger_64]

People like that usually die of lead poisoning... Just sayin'...

Some do, yes. But most don't. At any rate, I would prefer not to be the one to give him his medicine if I could avoid it. In my few city encounters, it was enough just to show the perps that I was armed. Coincidentally with a bigger weapon. Even mean punks are usually just punks when it comes time to fish or cut bait.

 

[gadgetgeek]

It also shows how you need to follow that first instinct, and leave before things get bad, in that instance a text message to send the cops earlier would have saved them a bunch of trouble. there is a point where being too suspicious is just too tiring, but being not suspicious enough can be fatal.
In short, I'd rely on situational awareness first and avoid the conflict instead of worrying about breaking laws.

 

[petah]

I always carry a Large can Bear spray.

But I found it hit and miss with Drunks. A good smack with a large stick always suffices.

 

[Codger_64]

It also shows how you need to follow that first instinct, and leave before things get bad, in that instance a text message to send the cops earlier would have saved them a bunch of trouble. there is a point where being too suspicious is just too tiring, but being not suspicious enough can be fatal.
In short, I'd rely on situational awareness first and avoid the conflict instead of worrying about breaking laws.

Situational awareness. Good point. In hindsight, we all can see how a benign yet uncomfortable situation escallated as the perp "Chris" got deeper into his cups.

I always carry a Large can Bear spray.

But I found it hit and miss with Drunks. A good smack with a large stick always suffices.

I've never used spray, but can see where it might be ineffective in some cases. Ladies, however, would likely be helpless in trying to physically overpower a guy. I like to carry a hardened hiking staff myself. An unexpected rap between the eyes will stop most dogs, so it might work on a drunk too.

 

[Pritch]

Codger,

There is a lot of pepper spray designed for use against humans, not bears. I think chemical sprays, be they CS, CN or OC are not universally effective but better than nothing.

A huge element for these two ladies would be deciding they were not prey. Food animals should know not to graze among predators. Pepper spray or a handgun has very little deterrent effect against a predator who has determined that you won't use it.

 

[silverbullets]

this is the main reason I never go into the mountains, or anywhere away from home without having a firearm handy, there are sh!theads all over and it is better to be prepared than sorry.

 

[hollowdweller]

A funny story.

My friend and her husband were hunting. He got a deer and she helped him get it into the trunk of their car.

On the drive home their eyes were watering and something was irritating their sinuses. They were puzzling if the deer had a gangrenous part from a previous injury.

When they got home they realized that when they threw the deer in the trunk they threw it on her purse and it had set off her pepper spray



IMO on the story 2 hours is not that far in. If I hiked in and saw a guy eating takeout and drinking whisky from a bottle he had to carry in I would automatically suspect he was mentally ill or on the run.

 

[Codger_64]

Codger,

There is a lot of pepper spray designed for use against humans, not bears. I think chemical sprays, be they CS, CN or OC are not universally effective but better than nothing.

A huge element for these two ladies would be deciding they were not prey. Food animals should know not to graze among predators. Pepper spray or a handgun has very little deterrent effect against a predator who has determined that you won't use it.

I have been hit with CS, CN and OC. It is very irritating, but I don't think it would have incapacitated me if I had been enraged, drunk, or very determined. In one instance it just made me so mad I snatched it from the user and smashed it on the floor before kicking it out of the store. Of course I was coughing and gagging, but so was the user. I think bear spray is more potent in strength and volume. Am I wrong?

I agree also that a lot of human predators have an uncanny way of sizing up their victims willingness/ability to use displayed protection.

this is the main reason I never go into the mountains, or anywhere away from home without having a firearm handy, there are sh!theads all over and it is better to be prepared than sorry.

Likewise myself to some extent, though I don't dwell on it. And when push comes to shove, my reluctance to escalate a situation while there is still hope of defuseing it may someday be my downfall.

...IMO on the story 2 hours is not that far in. If I hiked in and saw a guy eating takeout and drinking whisky from a bottle he had to carry in I would automatically suspect he was mentally ill or on the run.

I agree. Retrospectively, their best reaction would have been to about face and hike back out, keeping an ear and eye on their backtrail. However, fatigue and a "nothing bad can happen" attitude took it's toll. Luckily for them he didn't stop them from leaving when they did.

 

[AF]

IMO on the story 2 hours is not that far in. If I hiked in and saw a guy eating takeout and drinking whisky from a bottle he had to carry in I would automatically suspect he was mentally ill or on the run.

It's not far in at all. I would think the further from a road you are the less likely a disorganized drunk is going to be all the way out there.
In all my hikes in NH over the 48 4K footers and many sections of the AT I've never seen any threat from a human. I also never stay at the shelters because I don't want to be around people. But the people I've talked to are usually very friendly.
Obviously there are some bad people "out there." Nothing new and not a surprise.

 

[hollowdweller]

I agree. Retrospectively, their best reaction would have been to about face and hike back out, keeping an ear and eye on their backtrail. However, fatigue and a "nothing bad can happen" attitude took it's toll. Luckily for them he didn't stop them from leaving when they did.

Exactly.

But we would have smoked all his weed and drank him under the table first so he couldn't follow us.

:thumbup:

 

[DH1]

So that guy was "well known" by the police. That's nice. He can be "really well known" the next time he's harassing a family, then after that he can by "really, really well known.."

 

[Codger_64]

Exactly.

But we would have smoked all his weed and drank him under the table first so he couldn't follow us.

:thumbup:

Carrying a couple of pair of Chinese handcuffs works well on some of these guys too!

Seriously, I get the impression that Mrs. Hollowdweller is familiar enough with firearms to be competent, and I would be very surprised if you weren't. To not be too direct, would you or she be uncomfortable in carrying concealed in areas where THE LAW says it is verbotten? If so, would you consider Bear Spray to be a viable alternative?

So that guy was "well known" by the police. That's nice. He can be "really well known" the next time he's harassing a family, then after that he can by "really, really well known.."

This goes to the point I made earlier that "sometimes these guys swallow a lead pill", and sometimes they don't. This guy sounds like a "catch and release" with a history.

 

[Doc13]

I have been hit with CS, CN and OC. It is very irritating, but I don't think it would have incapacitated me if I had been enraged, drunk, or very determined. In one instance it just made me so mad I snatched it from the user and smashed it on the floor before kicking it out of the store. Of course I was coughing and gagging, but so was the user. I think bear spray is more potent in strength and volume. Am I wrong?

You are correct, I've been told 5-6 times more potent.

 

[hollowdweller]

Seriously, I get the impression that Mrs. Hollowdweller is familiar enough with firearms to be competent, and I would be very surprised if you weren't.

No we're pacifists.

 

[GPB]

Lot's of good advice here so can't re-quote it all, but my .02.....

Mistake 1: NO MEANS OF SELF PRESERVATION. These ladies are EXTREMELY LUCKY!
Mistake 2: Stranger, MUCH hard liquor, sticking around.
Mistake 3: Stranger, MUCH hard liquor, offering drugs, sticking around.
Mistake 4: Stranger, talking to himself, kids, far from help, sticking around.
Mistake 5: Stranger, common dwelling, even CONSIDERING going to sleep in same dwelling with stranger even before he showed his disposition.
Etc., etc., etc.

There were MANY pre-cursers to the final trigger to leave, it should have never gone that far.

a.) pack a gun even where potentially prohibited....yes, what did the Troopers say?
b.) pack a canister where bears not a problem....undecided, could just as easily be used against you if acquired by bad guy.....now you're NOT GETTING AWAY THROUGH THE WOODS! Yes, he could possibly get the gun away too. But would you rather be shot, or his slave, then killed.
c.) yes, suggest they acquire one or the other, acquire training, carry ON PERSON in a butt pack holster or concealed holster.

Other comments: Big stick nearly pointless. There a lot of people around that THINK they can do a lot of "things with things". A stick, club or whatever "in untrained hands" against a very motivated human, whose training or scope of narcotics of which you have no knowledge, is nearly useless. I apologize in advance but these kinds of assumptions never cease to amaze me. I sincerely mean no offense but it reminds me of the scene from The Warriors when one of the Warriors told a large baseball bat and makeup wielding opponent gang member "I'll shove that bat......and turn you into a popsicle". I say in all sincerity, don't think you have the skills to do something you do not practice everyday, you are fooling yourself.

In a recent MMA matchup, a very skilled professional boxer making his first appearance in that realm, was defeated in "full submission" by a fighter whose primary skills are "wrestling". You have no idea the skills of an opponent unknown to you. These ladies should have had the tools and training to balance the odds. Moreover, they should have left the area the moment they witnessed the scene. They are incredibly lucky to be alive.

 

[Codger_64]

Hey! That's one of those obsolete ax things, isn't it? What do you use that antique for? Or is it just a wall hanger? :thumbup:

My first wife wasn't a hunter, but she would shoot my guns. Come to find out, she could stitch the ground around a stray dog in the garden at 75 yards with my 10-22 without touching the dog. "Were you trying to hit that dog?" "It's still running, isn't it?" Who knew? I sure didn't. I wouldn't let her shoot my Hawkin .50. Bad enough she could outshoot me with the .22.

Lot's of good advice here so can't re-quote it all, but my .02..... I apologize in advance but these kinds of assumptions never cease to amaze me.

I won't quote all of your points either, but you did make some valid observations. As to which weapon I would rather lose to a perp, bear spray hands down. As long as I am alive there is hope of escape or rescue. I don't discount the use of a heavy walking stick in the absence of other weapons. I was never trained to use a pool cue as a weapon, but J.B. and I cleared a pool hall in Missisippi one night, pacifist hippes that we were.

 

[Moosez45]

I carry a gun. Usually a Colt 1911 or an XD45, in and out of the woods. I've been married to a great Lady for 15yrs and have 2 awesome daughters. We venture out often to the Great Outdoors, and we always go armed. Now that we can carry in the National Park here, the only thing that has changed is now, I am legal to have it. I carried there long before there were any laws saying I could. No law written on paper or nailed to a tree, ever protected anyone in danger. I take whatever means or precautions I have to in order to protect my family, that is my job. I got it when I said "I Do" and Mr Moose, here's your daughter(s). Just sayin'. Moose

PS. I never said it was obselete.

 

[Codger_64]

I carry a gun. Usually a Colt 1911 or an XD45, in and out of the woods. I've been married to a great Lady for 15yrs and have 2 awesome daughters. We venture out often to the Great Outdoors, and we always go armed. Now that we can carry in the National Park here, the only thing that has changed is now, I am legal to have it. I carried there long before there were any laws saying I could. No law written on paper or nailed to a tree, ever protected anyone in danger. I take whatever means or precautions I have to in order to protect my family, that is my job. I got it when I said "I Do" and Mr Moose, here's your daughter(s). Just sayin'. Moose

PS. I never said it was obselete.

Just joshing Mr. Moose!

Yes, taking responsibility for yourself, and especially for your family is job #1, I agree. I don't think any "law written on paper or nailed to a tree" can take that away. Carrying concealed when laws say we can't is a personal decision that we all have to make at some point, unless we decide to never carry at all. Good points there as well Moose!