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A narrow escape on the AT...
- Thread starter Codger_64
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October Mountain shelter has some bad juju alright. Probably my least-favorite shelter on the AT. Just something about it gave me the jeebees when I stayed there. That this encounter took place there does not surprise me in the least. Bad juju...
Codger_64
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Evidently not. Little Red Riding Hood went strolling thru the forest as she had many times before and happened upon a wolf.
Ah... so you are familiar with the place? Can you tell us more?
Mrs. Beanbag is a smart lady. As I mentioned before in this thread, my first inclination would have been to keep walking, dark and tired or not, even if it was back to my car. But... again... by her narrative (which is all we have) his behavior didn't deteriorate right off. Still...
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I'm not entirely sure that's true. I believe the number of predators among us is unchanged when measured as a percentage of the population. However, there's an awful lot more of us now than in, say, 1980 (about 100 million more) so the total number of predators is that much greater.
In addition, urban flight, which has given rise to the exurbs, has also created larger populations closer to our wild areas. Again, as a percentage of the population, the number of predators has remained static, but the rise in population means there's a corresponding rise in the raw number of predators.
Finally, people these days have become quite soft and trusting, especially in the wilderness. Used to be, people traveled warily in the wilderness, but not anymore. The result is a easier prey population, which only serves to attract predators.
And then, finally, success breeds more attempts. The more success predators have in the back country, the more predators will hunt there. Of course, our hysterical press which only serves to advertise predation success is helping to encourage this phenomena.
Bottom line: people need to be a lot more careful in the wilderness than they are at, say, starbucks. Sadly, too few actually get this message.
Given that you live in my area I will say this, DO NOT ever get caught using a prohibited weapon against a drunk.
My daughters have an over protective father and they know I would kill them
if they did not use the training and caution that I have given them.I cannot imagine my wife or daughters setting up camp NEAR let alone in the same building with someone that had a camp like that.
I'm sure this is not universal. But I've seen several instances where laws that concern prohibited weapons that include firearms AND pepper spray, there is no legal difference between the two. They are both considered the same legally. So if you are going to carry illegally, might as well be the firearm.
I've had a CCW since Texas first made it legal. I have a really decent shooting range on my property and have taught more than a few to shoot and to respect a firearm well (Females are MUCH easier to teach by the way). That said, even before the CCW law here, I still carried on a semi regular basis. As was mentioned in an earlier post, if it's concealed and you aren't doing anything stupid, there will be no reason for anyone to ever know or find out. I WOULD NOT be on the trail unarmed (but then, I also would not have stuck around past the first once over).
I've had a CCW since Texas first made it legal. I have a really decent shooting range on my property and have taught more than a few to shoot and to respect a firearm well (Females are MUCH easier to teach by the way). That said, even before the CCW law here, I still carried on a semi regular basis. As was mentioned in an earlier post, if it's concealed and you aren't doing anything stupid, there will be no reason for anyone to ever know or find out. I WOULD NOT be on the trail unarmed (but then, I also would not have stuck around past the first once over).
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To answer the OP:
1.) I would recommend they get a firearm or whatever is legal (it's up to them if they want to carry something illegal and play by "big boy" rules), and training to use it. This includes MA training.
2.) Laws that prevent me from being able to defend myself don't get a lot of attention by me.
Now, in this situation, being a man, I would have reacted differently.
First, dipdunks like this are one reason I don't do many established trails or stay in premade shelters.
Second, I might just have walked up and shot the breeze for a while and then moved on.
However, during my homeless days, I met several people like that. When they start talking crazy about killing and start showing aggression, chances of an attack are very high. Personally, if he started talking like that (and yes, these nuts do talk like that about men), he'd get one chance to back off -- as I was leaving. If he didn't recognize the chance for what it was, I would have preemptively f-ed him up right there and left.
I could probably take care of the dog without hurting it too bad, otherwise, I hate to hurt animals, but. . .
1.) I would recommend they get a firearm or whatever is legal (it's up to them if they want to carry something illegal and play by "big boy" rules), and training to use it. This includes MA training.
2.) Laws that prevent me from being able to defend myself don't get a lot of attention by me.
Now, in this situation, being a man, I would have reacted differently.
First, dipdunks like this are one reason I don't do many established trails or stay in premade shelters.
Second, I might just have walked up and shot the breeze for a while and then moved on.
However, during my homeless days, I met several people like that. When they start talking crazy about killing and start showing aggression, chances of an attack are very high. Personally, if he started talking like that (and yes, these nuts do talk like that about men), he'd get one chance to back off -- as I was leaving. If he didn't recognize the chance for what it was, I would have preemptively f-ed him up right there and left.
I could probably take care of the dog without hurting it too bad, otherwise, I hate to hurt animals, but. . .
Codger_64
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Here is what we have so far that could have improved her situation.
1. Situational awareness- Be aware of what is going on around you. If you walk into a situation that makes you uncomfortable, keep walking. Either do a 180 degree turn and go back to the trailhead, or move on down the trail. If the situation you are in becomes uncomfortable, listen to your instincts and leave right then. Note that situational awareness is not the same as paranoia. It is simply the ability/willingness to observe what is going on around you and respond accordingly before an uncomfortable situation becomes a dangerous one.
2. Appearance - Don't give the appearance of being an easy target, i.e. "prey", for predators human or animal. Both types of predators favor prey that appears to be weak, isolated and easy to take. Going to remote places alone or with only one other person can make you appear to be an easy target for predators. This applies especially to women, youngsters and oldsters. Don't display items which send signals of your being a rich target. Expensive jewelry, clothes and electronics/cameras should be out of view or left at home. Most predators have an aversion to attacking prey that appears to have the ability to injure them. Think about how you might give off an aura of being non-prey (without "scaring the horses"!).
3.- Preparation - Be prepared to defend yourself should the need arise. Self defense can be as simple as using the adage "safety in numbers", MA training, carrying a large staff, bear spray or a gun. The likelihood of needing any of them can be reduced by your appearance and situational awareness. What you chose to carry and use for personal defense is your decision. Weigh all of the factors of each and whatever you decide, become proficient with the tool/method you chose. Often, just the display of a means of self defense can turn a situation before it escalates.
4.- Communication - Always let someone know your plans before you go. If you are overdue to return, searchers have an idea of where to look. Leaving someone a recent photograph of yourself showing your clothing and equipment also helps searchers/investigators more than you might imagine. Cell phones are great to have if/when things go wrong, as we can see in this instance. However, they don't always work everywhere and can fail (lost, dead battery, damaged or taken). PLB's (such as SPOT) are good too, but have the same drawbacks, even though they rely on overhead satellites instead of broadcast towers.
I hope that this discussion has been beneficial to someone, somewhere. As I see, it has already prompted several wives of members here to read and comment. Please build on that discussion with your significant other. If it only serves to raise their awareness and get them thinking about being proactive, good.
Codger
1. Situational awareness- Be aware of what is going on around you. If you walk into a situation that makes you uncomfortable, keep walking. Either do a 180 degree turn and go back to the trailhead, or move on down the trail. If the situation you are in becomes uncomfortable, listen to your instincts and leave right then. Note that situational awareness is not the same as paranoia. It is simply the ability/willingness to observe what is going on around you and respond accordingly before an uncomfortable situation becomes a dangerous one.
2. Appearance - Don't give the appearance of being an easy target, i.e. "prey", for predators human or animal. Both types of predators favor prey that appears to be weak, isolated and easy to take. Going to remote places alone or with only one other person can make you appear to be an easy target for predators. This applies especially to women, youngsters and oldsters. Don't display items which send signals of your being a rich target. Expensive jewelry, clothes and electronics/cameras should be out of view or left at home. Most predators have an aversion to attacking prey that appears to have the ability to injure them. Think about how you might give off an aura of being non-prey (without "scaring the horses"!).
3.- Preparation - Be prepared to defend yourself should the need arise. Self defense can be as simple as using the adage "safety in numbers", MA training, carrying a large staff, bear spray or a gun. The likelihood of needing any of them can be reduced by your appearance and situational awareness. What you chose to carry and use for personal defense is your decision. Weigh all of the factors of each and whatever you decide, become proficient with the tool/method you chose. Often, just the display of a means of self defense can turn a situation before it escalates.
4.- Communication - Always let someone know your plans before you go. If you are overdue to return, searchers have an idea of where to look. Leaving someone a recent photograph of yourself showing your clothing and equipment also helps searchers/investigators more than you might imagine. Cell phones are great to have if/when things go wrong, as we can see in this instance. However, they don't always work everywhere and can fail (lost, dead battery, damaged or taken). PLB's (such as SPOT) are good too, but have the same drawbacks, even though they rely on overhead satellites instead of broadcast towers.
I hope that this discussion has been beneficial to someone, somewhere. As I see, it has already prompted several wives of members here to read and comment. Please build on that discussion with your significant other. If it only serves to raise their awareness and get them thinking about being proactive, good.
Codger
There are not many jurisdictions where pepper spray is restricted, (Massachusetts is one, but the license required is shall issue, and cheap.) I never go unarmed, usually with a gun. If I walked into a communal site and their were whiskey bottles and drugs I would bail. I have seen first hand the unpredictability of people on mind altering substances and you take your chances even with people you know well. I would actually suggest a small can of pepper spray over the bear spray, as the bear spray is a fogging type weapon, and a small spray is controllable.
Codger_64
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Thanks for posting this summary. :thumbup: Between this forum and Practical Tactical I think I have improved numbers 1,2,and 4 and #3 is a work in progress.
I have been thinking about a PLB all summer for exactly this situation.
Also, when I was pondering hiking footwear choices earlier this summer and the type of terrain we have here, this scenario is one reason why I chose to hike in boots. If I am on the run in the woods fighting for my life, I want my feet protected. If I need to land a kick I want it to count. Hopefully I won't let suspicious people get that close to me in the first place.
Prac Tact forum has some other interesting and helpful ideas re self defense and weapons, lethal and non-lethal. MA training may be in my near future.
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Fixed
:thumbup:
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I will put a caveat here for the women, because I think its worth noting. So often in our society we put our "shock" on ignore. Its a defense mechanism. Some of us see awful things no a daily basis - drug and alcohol use is rampant in both urban and rural environs. We are so used to seeing it, it doesn't always raise the alert levels the way it should. I remember looking at an apartment with my fiance where the husband smelled of whiskey and marijuana smoke. I told the fiance I would not live there because of that. Its not that I personally object to drinking or smoking pot, its that I don't want to deal with the possible ramifications of its use by a third party that I will have to deal with. We have decided to be accepting as a culture of certain behavior, which is fine, but it should not override our sense of safety and survival. Its foolhardy, like saying I know how to drive in the snow so I should, instead of waying the costs and benefits and making a reasoned decision. This woman admitted that it didn't seem right, and she acecpted the risks by remaining at the camp - realizing she should have trusted her intuition a little late in the game. Would you have felt "safe" to stay here even if you were armed? I tell you, I go armed and I would have turned around. Chemicals raise the posibility of conflict, and create risk - how you manage that risk is important - she got lucky, and hopefully learns that its not the woods, its not "drama" its life.
Thanks for starting this discussion. It got a lot of us thinking more about our own preparedness and how we need to prepare our families. You gave a good summary. I would like to comment a bit:
The mental part of preparation is often overlooked. Some people buy a firearm for home defense without deciding what conditions merit using that weapon. Those people often get their weapons used against them by people who have already made their decisions (badly). I have a mental list of three points:
1. Avoid conflict if possible. It is preferable to run away if that can be done.
2. Do not even show a weapon (firearm or knife) unless I have the legal and moral right to kill my attacker. Showing a weapon is a form of assault and puts me in the wrong unless I need to defend my life.
3. Dead men tell no lies. That sounds harsh, but refer back to the previous point. Roy Rogers and John Wayne can shoot to wound or disable; it's in the script. The rest of us are in fear for our lives or we would not even show a weapon in the first place. I want to be SURE my attacker is not able to continue his attack.
One final note on defensive tools: Irritants like bear spray are not reliable against drunks, dopers and crazy people. Many of them will not feel irritation that would disable most people (like that poor family in the parking lot). When your attacker's mind is altered you need to stop him mechanically -- tie him up, knock him out or kill him.
Thanks,
Steve
Late edit: As many on CandlepowerForums will be quick to say, having only one light was also pretty silly. Granted, at this point it seems to be a made-up story, but a spare light or two need not be large or heavy.
Yes, indeed. If you don't know what is around you any number of unfortunate things can happen. If you're not aware of danger coming, that concealed weapon will still be in its holster, your bear spray will still be in its holster with the safety firmly engaged, ...
This is usually easier to do with people than animals, at least for me. And no amount of tough appearance will matter to a rabid animal, but those are generally rare.
It is good there were two of them, but that didn't stop Chris. I hope they keep hiking with slightly larger groups. Getting out in nature is great and relaxing (in a sweaty way). It would be a shame for this encounter to sour them on safer hikes.
The mental part of preparation is often overlooked. Some people buy a firearm for home defense without deciding what conditions merit using that weapon. Those people often get their weapons used against them by people who have already made their decisions (badly). I have a mental list of three points:
1. Avoid conflict if possible. It is preferable to run away if that can be done.
2. Do not even show a weapon (firearm or knife) unless I have the legal and moral right to kill my attacker. Showing a weapon is a form of assault and puts me in the wrong unless I need to defend my life.
3. Dead men tell no lies. That sounds harsh, but refer back to the previous point. Roy Rogers and John Wayne can shoot to wound or disable; it's in the script.
The rest of us are in fear for our lives or we would not even show a weapon in the first place. I want to be SURE my attacker is not able to continue his attack.One final note on defensive tools: Irritants like bear spray are not reliable against drunks, dopers and crazy people. Many of them will not feel irritation that would disable most people (like that poor family in the parking lot). When your attacker's mind is altered you need to stop him mechanically -- tie him up, knock him out or kill him.
This is Hiking 101. I'm glad they had cell coverage. If I did more backwoods hiking I would consider an amateur radio license and appropriate equipment for long range communication.
I've had some good discussions with my daughter (17) and plan to talk this situation over with her tonight. My wife works differently so my daughter and I will have to take care of threats against her.
Thanks,
Steve
Late edit: As many on CandlepowerForums will be quick to say, having only one light was also pretty silly. Granted, at this point it seems to be a made-up story, but a spare light or two need not be large or heavy.
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DennisStrickland
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anyone going to the boonies should be prepared for a crazy. i learned a lesson in the 9th grade when we stopped to aid a seemingly disabled vehicle. one of the men was on meth or cocaine & attacked me. between my brother [ a star miler for the track team] & myself with a large branch we left him lying in the street. since that day in the 50s i go packing. live another day --then worry about legalities. if you're dead you want have any worries anyhow.
dennis
dennis
