A narrow escape on the AT...

[GPB]

I won't quote all of your points either, but you did make some valid observations. As to which weapon I would rather lose to a perp, bear spray hands down. As long as I am alive there is hope of escape or rescue. I don't discount the use of a heavy walking stick in the absence of other weapons. I was never trained to use a pool cue as a weapon, but J.B. and I cleared a pool hall in Missisippi one night, pacifist hippes that we were.

"...lose to a perp...." I hear you. My point is that someone that intent on doing you harm isn't going to leave a living witness. Therefore, in this case, as females, their likelihood of being sprayed with bear spray (if he got it from them), raped (maybe for days as victims of bear spray), THEN killed was probably rather high, wouldn't you think?

I don't discount the use of a heavy walking stick either, "in the absence of other weapons" is my exact point. They should have had more than even a big stick in their AO.

LOL and I DO BELIEVE YOU CLEARED THAT POOL HALL SIR!:thumbup: Nothing wrong with a "big stick" Teddy. But remember, that it is only better than one thing, having NOTHING.

I would have removed my shirt and stuck the cue ball in it (big monkey fist)...but that's just me.....I'm weired like that.

BTW: Thank you for this thread Codger (excellent story). It may in fact save someone's life someday.

 

[Codger_64]

...
LOL and I DO BELIEVE YOU CLEARED THAT POOL HALL SIR!:thumbup: Nothing wrong with a "big stick" Teddy. But remember, that it is only better than one thing, having NOTHING.

I would have removed my shirt and stuck the cue ball in it...but that's just me.....I'm weird like that.

I left out the mention of the pool balls. That was when the fight started. We had them all. They didn't. Yet. Cues, balls, sticks, rocks, all weapons of opportunity. When you are fighting for your life, few weapons are beyond consideration, including dousing the guy with his own whisky and kicking him into the fire. When survival is at stake (as in the aforementioned pool hall incident), the objective is to win by whatever means you can McGuyver. :thumbup:

...BTW: Thank you for this thread (excellent story). It may in fact save someone's life someday...

Thank you for recognizing my intent. Who knows, a few more pages and we may come up with a summation that will stick in someone's mind and help them out of a dark, tight spot.

 

[GPB]

When survival is at stake (as in the aforementioned pool hall incident), the objective is to win by whatever means you can McGuyver. :thumbup:

Thank you for recognizing my intent. Who knows, a few more pages and we may come up with a summation that will stick in someone's mind and help them out of a dark, tight spot.

".....win by whatever means....." 1000% CORRECT SIR. Nail on the head.

You're welcome and right again....one of these days I have to figure out how you do the multi-quote thingy here.

I am very happy these ladies made it out of their situation.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

They got very lucky indeed! The point of exit was the height of their risk.

God help me for the source of this quote being a movie, but it has served me extremely well in life: "When there is any doubt, there is no doubt." So, so true. Spidey sense tingling? Get the F out of the situation. I can think of very few common situations worth remaining in, against that feeling/perceived risk.

Having a firearm and being trained in its use (and receiving training in situational awareness) puts you miles ahead of these two women. Carrying any sort of non-lethal weapon (spray, whatever) is an extraordinarily distant second, right ahead of a pointy stick.

Someone means to do you deadly harm? Then they just made a decision for both of you; one of you must die.

 

[Moosez45]

I am very happy these ladies made it out of their situation.

So am I. Perhaps next time they will be more prepared. I just hope that this doesn't cast a shadow on future expeditions outdoors. Bad experiences can either be learned from or ran from.

Trust in God, and carry a loaded gun. Moose

PS. I knew you were Mr. Codger :thumbup:

 

[ROCK6]

Pretty sad. My wife said she would have threatened to shoot him...he threatened murder and rape; both are considered viable threats of assault and a male against female(s) is an imbalance of power and justify use of deadly force. She said she would have packed up and put the tent up in the dark away from the shelter and warned him that if he came within 25 feet she would shoot him. I sure wouldn't want to deal with the legal fees (not much if the dirt bag isn't alive), but they do have families that would sue. I have little tolerance for two-legged animals; alcohol and drugs are not excuses for violent behavior or actions. If I was there, depending on the disposition of his dog, I would have beat the hell out of him and tied him to the picnic table...call 911 and report him, leaving a note for the police.

Pretty bad judgment by the lady. Once you see a drunk and plenty of empty bottles and started hearing cursing...I would have left regardless of the dark (you have headlamps!). The first rule of thumb is not to put yourself in a vulnerable position. Second rule, is to have the means to defend yourself if you do end up in one.

ROCK6

 

[bulgron]

The thing about carrying a concealed weapon even where prohibited is that if it's truly concealed, the authorities won't be bothered by it. Just don't give them a reason to search you. (And, yes, they need a reason to search you, no matter what they say.)

Hopefully in the near future, all of the 2A-related lawsuits going on around the country will result in unlicensed loaded open carry becoming the constitutional standard, which should result in reasonably-available CCWs becoming the socially-acceptable way to carry. But at my most optimistic, that's still at least 2 - 4 years away.

That said, even if armed, I still like to use a big, thick hiking staff. That seems to work pretty well to keep the idiots from bothering me. If you present yourself as a potential victim, then predators will treat you as a victim. If you present yourself as someone who will cause pain and suffering if messed with, then predators will usually leave you alone.

 

[bulgron]

Pretty bad judgment by the lady. Once you see a drunk and plenty of empty bottles and started hearing cursing...I would have left regardless of the dark (you have headlamps!). The first rule of thumb is not to put yourself in a vulnerable position. Second rule, is to have the means to defend yourself if you do end up in one.

ROCK6

Yeah, once I see signs of alcohol in a campgrounds or in the back country, I start thinking of other places where I could be.

 

[Codger_64]

More good points Rock6 (and Mrs. Rock6 ). I would not have even considered putting up a tent in the area. Unless I were armed and did some tree stump target practice first. I am sure you are familair with the noise and flame a .357 puts out in the woods at night. It is impressive.

Ah, but enough keyboard commando from me. What else could they have done?

Oh, by the way, the ladies have standing offers from other experienced hikers in the area to join their group on future outings. That is their third option to obtaining their own pistol or bear spray.

 

[ROCK6]

Oh, by the way, the ladies have standing offers from other experienced hikers in the area to join their group on future outings. That is their third option to obtaining their own pistol or bear spray.

Yeah, that's another great option and 99% of those groups/individuals are upstanding people. I'm not sure which would be worse to face on the trail: a mother brown bear with cubs or my wife with kids and a gun feeling threatened She's a very independent military spouse:thumbup:

ROCK6

 

[GPB]

Having a firearm and being trained in its use (and receiving training in situational awareness) puts you miles ahead of these two women. Carrying any sort of non-lethal weapon (spray, whatever) is an extraordinarily distant second, right ahead of a pointy stick.

I hope people hear your words of wisdom, they are exponentially correct!:thumbup:

This guy could have just as easily been three, or five, or Bruce Lee. I sincerely hope people don't read this and get their wife or daughter a big hiking stick and pepper spray, thinking she or they covered, they're not! These items are only better than nothing, but they are better than nothing.

Too many in condition green.

 

[Stray Round]

The three major rules in life:
1. Don't go to stupid places
2. Don't do stupid things
3. Don't be around stupid people

Your female around an unknown male who is drinking, drugging and obviously not a "woods person" with your daughter. Even if you are a ninja and have a weapon you should be making tracks because you should know it isn't going to be good.

As for being armed, if the laws state that I cannot be armed there better be a SEAL team around giving me ex protection before I'm willingly going disarmed.

 

[Codger_64]

Well, while the situation can be applied in one way or another to each of us, we do have some very important members here from countries where the ownership and carrying of a firearm is strictly controlled or forbidden altogether (U.K., Australia, Canada and others to one extent or another) and members from some pretty restrictive cities and states here in the U.S. as well. For many of them, the pistol isn't an option. Even in the state of Mass where this happened, laws of purchase, ownership and carrying are fairly draconian. And let's face it... for some ladies (and men too), unfamiliarity with or personal prejudice against firearms use and carry will preclude them from doing so, as well as will being under the minimum age.

 

[Tostig]

Codger what a frightening little story.

Goes to show that scumbags are everywhere , those ladies could have ended up much worse off , I hope they learned a lesson and do get some protection and learn how to use it.

Tostig

 

[mtwarden]

it may or may not be realistic for these ladies to be carrying a firearm (I don't know them, not does anyone here me thinks), but it certainly wouldn't be unrealistic to be carrying bear spray on the AT

bear spray typically is at the high end of concentration for OC, contains more propellent and more OC than "human" OC spray- having been sprayed by OC, I certainly wouldn't want to take a blast (or two or three or four) of bear spray

bear spray is also very effective on dogs, which w/ the AT's close proximity to civilization is probably a real concern as well

 

[Whiskey River]

Some do, yes. But most don't. At any rate, I would prefer not to be the one to give him his medicine if I could avoid it. In my few city encounters, it was enough just to show the perps that I was armed. Coincidentally with a bigger weapon. Even mean punks are usually just punks when it comes time to fish or cut bait.

A guy like this one was, threatening to "f&ck the hot one and kill the fat one" or whatever..... should never see the gun until a millisecond before the hammer is dropped. What if he had one they didnt see? or if he ran and fought them for it?

Never give scum like that any chance.... that was a real threat, period.

 

[Codger_64]

it may or may not be realistic for these ladies to be carrying a firearm (I don't know them, not does anyone here me thinks), but it certainly wouldn't be unrealistic to be carrying bear spray on the AT

bear spray typically is at the high end of concentration for OC, contains more propellant and more OC than "human" OC spray- having been sprayed by OC, I certainly wouldn't want to take a blast (or two or three or four) of bear spray

bear spray is also very effective on dogs, which w/ the AT's close proximity to civilization is probably a real concern as well

Yes. Yes. Yes. The very fact that this trail runs so close to towns and highways with a lot of local intersecting trails makes it easy for nere-do-wells to access it, such as the guy "Chris" from my story. Many smaller state parks with trails also suffer from this malady. Make the trails easy to access for day-hikers and much of the public, and the dregs of society will eventually show up.

Habituated bears are a growing problem along the AT as well. I think that for many people, a canister of bear spray makes a good defensive weapon. But still, a person would do well to learn how and when to use it.

 

[jayinhk]

Where I live, pepper spray and firearms are both illegal, but when I go out into the seriously wild jungle we have here, one of my goloks or khukuris and at least two smaller blades are on me at all times, and I have trained with all of them. I carry a stick too, but only to move vegetation out of the way to check for snakes or to break massive spider webs I can't get around.

 

[Ebbtide]

I don't think occurrences like this are more common now.
I do think we have a better vehicle for hearing about them.

 

[Codger_64]

I don't think occurrences like this are more common now.
I do think we have a better vehicle for hearing about them.

You could be right about this. But it makes sense to put this new-found medium to work in discussing solutions that we can apply to our own lives and those around us. That is why I like bringing in these stories for discussion. There have been quite a few useful observations and suggestions in this thread so far. And as we have seen from jayinhk's input, some of our best intentioned ideas are non-starters in some places.