A Phone Isn't A Map

What is the point? Those people got lost in a recreation area in the UK. A dinky little overpopulated country. You can drive the length of it in a day.

I was thinking the same thing. Where in England could a person possibly find themselves not within a few km of a road or village?
But then it dawned on me that simply being near something isn't much help if you don't know what direction to walk to get there. :)

Being supposedly 'lost' in a "rats nest of unmarked and confusing trails," is no reason to initiate a SAR event either. :thumbdn:
 
The problem is that people now think of phones as part of their brain. People now immediately think of google when a problem comes up, think of searching a word if they do not know how to work through an idea. This is a severe limitation on critical thinking and shows an increase in the 'collective mindedness' or herd mentality. The technological gear acts as a crutch which is supposed to bridge the person's lack of skill.
That just about says it all.
 
Alone.... OMG, my cell phone battery died. I'm out of here. :D

Without electricity, most of the modern technology FAILS. I just hope I never see the day there is a natural or unnatural EMP event that is continent or earth wide.
Many will freeze and/or starve.
 
TV also could have become a great and powerful tool. Instead it became the "Idiot Box".
 
I was thinking the same thing. Where in England could a person possibly find themselves not within a few km of a road or village?
But then it dawned on me that simply being near something isn't much help if you don't know what direction to walk to get there. :)

Being supposedly 'lost' in a "rats nest of unmarked and confusing trails," is no reason to initiate a SAR event either. :thumbdn:

Exactly. The real problem could be those volunteer SAR nannies. Disband them and let the problem sort it self out.

Nail up the skulls of those who didn't make it and the folks who don't like working without a net will find somewhere else for a lovely hike.
 
Reminds me of the story a few years ago when someone got lost in a corn maze panicked and called 911. Today's phones are great. I've got a library of maps and manuals. Neither needs cell service. Solar charger for charging. A camera and video recorder. Tons of music. All in a handheld. And it can make phone calls send emails. Why wouldn't you bring it as well as a paper map.
 
Reminds me of the story a few years ago when someone got lost in a corn maze panicked and called 911. Today's phones are great. I've got a library of maps and manuals. Neither needs cell service. Solar charger for charging. A camera and video recorder. Tons of music. All in a handheld. And it can make phone calls send emails. Why wouldn't you bring it as well as a paper map.
[video=youtube;U0p6QVBqAXA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0p6QVBqAXA[/video]
 
Reminds me of the story a few years ago when someone got lost in a corn maze panicked and called 911. Today's phones are great. I've got a library of maps and manuals. Neither needs cell service. Solar charger for charging. A camera and video recorder. Tons of music. All in a handheld. And it can make phone calls send emails. Why wouldn't you bring it as well as a paper map.
I would not bring one because I never bought one, nor do I have plans to buy one. I'll stick with my dumb phone to make and receive calls and texts. Besides, the reason I go into the outdoors is to unplug.
 
I would not bring one because I never bought one, nor do I have plans to buy one. I'll stick with my dumb phone to make and receive calls and texts. Besides, the reason I go into the outdoors is to unplug.

Nowt wrong with that. From what I have seen of your posts that plays to your strengths. If you made an informed choice then it would be a bit silly to say you are wrong, either way.

Amongst the massive amount of trolling this sub-forum gets there's often a bunch of folk that are too ignorant to speak on a topic, or willfully myopic, or just plain old school liars. 'Till we can identify which is which it's probably a good thing that we first play a generous move and try to educate them before writing them off as a member of one of the other groups.

People have been making bold claims since forever here: Wool has properties X and is the best. If you choose Wellingtons not Danner for the woods you will die. Stainless steel is the wrong choice for a woods knife your life may depend on. Waterproof breathable fabrics are all hype and true outdoorsmen would be better of in a waxed jacket or rubber suit. And on and on. In this instance phones we're singling out for pillory, and the prosecution just did not stand up. I like that 'cos we all get to make more informed choices if we shake the tree.

I envisage a future thread where someone makes the claim that devices running on 18650 / 18350 cells are a liability 'cos they are more of a fire hazard compared too AA/AAA. And if we have that one out we may well find that on balance they confer considerable advantages on the savvy user, yet are a blight on the muppet. Same as we got here with the phone thing. If somebody said “I just prefer AA 'cos...”, I can respect that. Again, same as just a preference to not take a sophisticated phone as a navigation aid. It's honest. When folks are disingenuous and make absolute claims pointing at phones as a cause of a problem, well that's simply a lie. Nobody should be comfortable with that.
 
I once used my smartphone to locate an address in an urban setting. Yes, Google Maps has its place. In the outdoors..... Map & compass.
 
An interesting discussion on gear bloat and the limits of technology:
[video=youtube;7tmFIxaRhd0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tmFIxaRhd0[/video]
 
Nowt wrong with that. From what I have seen of your posts that plays to your strengths. If you made an informed choice then it would be a bit silly to say you are wrong, either way.

Amongst the massive amount of trolling this sub-forum gets there's often a bunch of folk that are too ignorant to speak on a topic, or willfully myopic, or just plain old school liars. 'Till we can identify which is which it's probably a good thing that we first play a generous move and try to educate them before writing them off as a member of one of the other groups.

People have been making bold claims since forever here: Wool has properties X and is the best. If you choose Wellingtons not Danner for the woods you will die. Stainless steel is the wrong choice for a woods knife your life may depend on. Waterproof breathable fabrics are all hype and true outdoorsmen would be better of in a waxed jacket or rubber suit. And on and on. In this instance phones we're singling out for pillory, and the prosecution just did not stand up. I like that 'cos we all get to make more informed choices if we shake the tree.

I envisage a future thread where someone makes the claim that devices running on 18650 / 18350 cells are a liability 'cos they are more of a fire hazard compared too AA/AAA. And if we have that one out we may well find that on balance they confer considerable advantages on the savvy user, yet are a blight on the muppet. Same as we got here with the phone thing. If somebody said “I just prefer AA 'cos...”, I can respect that. Again, same as just a preference to not take a sophisticated phone as a navigation aid. It's honest. When folks are disingenuous and make absolute claims pointing at phones as a cause of a problem, well that's simply a lie. Nobody should be comfortable with that.

This is called a strawman argument. The reasons were given very clearly why a map and compass are superior. You are arguing that it is just opinion; completely different argument. Another example is that you have reduced the argument to the absurd, as if the difference between a map and phone is the same as battery types. Then you even attempt to make not so subtle personal attacks. Perhaps a mistake to continue but I learn from these arguments so perhaps someone else can get something out of it too.

While GPS and phones may be good for quick reference in areas with signal, there is simply no comparison to map and compass for serious navigation requirements (especially in true wilderness settings where there is little or no signal).

Claiming that there were lies made while not pointing them out is itself a form of lie, and disingenuous. Separate articles were provided pointing to the problem, both from professionals who have to rescue people in the wild (and anyone can easily look up more articles if they see this as insufficient information). Reading the articles with the slightest amount of critical thinking should suggest how something is wrong, and that it cannot just be pinned on the individuals. (Think of weapons, how large is the potential area of damage for a knife compared to a nuke? The fragility and risk involved with technology increases as the energy input increases, and one of the aspects of fragility is the decline in personal responsibility. One could argue that no map is the ultimate ideal as it requires such high navigational skill, the ability to map in your head, and would be the exact opposite of using the phone as a surrogate for your brain.)

The repeated claims that everything comes down to opinion and personal preference is simply a sign of the times (it is essentially an amalgam fallacy: appeal to emotion, appeal to authority, appeal to personal experience); when people become overly sensitive to others and any strong ideas. There are truths which go beyond personal preference, and simply denying them does not make them go away, it actually perpetuates the problem. While people who rely on the 'personal preference' fallacy feel in some way disrespected when a person presents a strong idea, it is really a disrespect to cause ignorance surrounding a well-researched topic - in this case by trying to shut down discussion with the old line, 'It's just personal preference.'

You could respond to Mors Kochanski's "Ideal Bushcraft Knife" that it's all just personal preference and a Bear Grylls' knife with an iPhone taped to it is just as good. But you would be wrong, and it would be an insult to the person and all the effort he put into studying and sharing that knowledge.

In other words, it is not an insult to tell someone they are wrong when they are (and you can prove it), but it is an insult to tell someone they are wrong when there is no proof and you rely on your solipsism of 'personal preference'. The latter is what people tend towards today, and it's connected to tall-poppy syndrome and moral relativism (essentially it is a technique to knock down people with more experience and/or knowledge with the idea that the use of an object is completely relative). You're welcome to your personal preference but don't try to pass it off as some great ideal which trumps all future discussion, otherwise your attempts to turn everything you don't like as disingenuous might be called out for what they are: a disingenuous facade of discussion which is really aimed at shutting the discussion down.
 
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Oh Grasshopper, I don't know whether you are just making this stuff up or shitting it out. I really don't care. In no particular order:

1] The person to whom I responded expressed a personal preference. I said I take no issue with that, and it would be silly to.

2] The battery choice thing compares well. Beyond the factual strength and weakness of each type both are usually sufficient. Selection may come down to some arbitrary other component eg “too cheap to buy a new charger”.

3] “reasons were given very clearly why a map and compass are superior” Yeah, nobody said they can't be. As my first post though, there must be some good reason why so many SAR units in so many different countries are also using the same navigation software on their phones that I run. They already had the maps and compasses, so can you suppose that might be.

4] I did not personally attack him. I strongly doubt he felt personally attacked. And even if I did what makes you think he would ever need you as a defense.

5] You're attempts at stirring up shit are boring people sweetie.


There you go, patience exhausted.
 
While GPS and phones may be good for quick reference in areas with signal, there is simply no comparison to map and compass for serious navigation requirements (especially in true wilderness settings where there is little or no signal).

maybe my posts aren't showing up????????- you don't need a cell signal, in fact I shut mine off (called airplane mode)- the gps unit will work WITHOUT a signal, combined with the right software you have a digitized 24K:1 topo map with gps capabilities- not too shabby in unit that weighs 4.5 oz and also takes great pictures (and with a cell signal you can even talk to Mom!)

I don't leave my paper map or compass in my truck because I have a "phone", I take the "phone" to augment my compass and map- it's technology, it's good technology- it doesn't replace a map & compass, it compliments it
 
Pfffft, dang kids with their phones, maps, and compasses...
You're ALL doing it wrong. :grumpy:

What you really need is a huge ball of twine.
You just let it out as you go, then follow the trail of twine to get back out. :D
 
I would like this to be a discussion of the pros and cons of the gear, not of fellow members.

Please discuss:

The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a space-based navigation system that provides location and time information in all weather conditions, anywhere on or near the Earth where there is an unobstructed line of sight to four or more GPS satellites so you can receive the signal from those satellites. When an object lies within the direct path, accuracy suffers due to reflections and weakening of signals. This can be the cause of lost signal in urban environments, within valleys, and on mountain slopes. In all three situations, the objects (buildings and the Earth itself) are substantial enough to completely block the GPS signals. When weak signals are received, they may have been reflected off buildings and the surrounding landscape. Reflections generate multi-path signals arriving with a small time delay at the receiver. This results in inaccurately calculated position.
 
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My 11 year old GPS unit almost always can get a signal, even when sitting in my house under a roof. I know they have come a long way since then. It has a nice moving map and is a fine navigation tool. Mine is eerily accurate. Just make sure you have the correct datum set. It has lost lock in some deep Utah canyons but gets it again when I climb up on a bench. They are not infallible. Girlfriend runs it on all of our trips and I am never without my map and compass.

Personally I would never take just a GPS or phone because I have seen both fail with first hand experience but they can be very useful. I prefer map and compass and use them extensively on most of our trips. I always mark our vehicle with just the compass and all of our camps. You don't even need a map to do that and that alone can walk you back to your mark, maybe need to navigate around some obstacles, big and small but it is a way of pinpointing a spot in the terrain. A good map is a raven's eye on the world and very useful in various explorations.

Given the choice I always take all three but none of them do everything you need in the navigation of southwestern canyon country. they are fine tools though.
 
This could be a good discussion, if not for the cockfighting.

I think it has been established time and time again that technology can be beneficial as long as it doesn't fully replace cognitive skills. This was made painfully apparent to me when my 13yr old daughter lost her iPod. With it, she also lost the ability to dial a landline, use a calculator, dictionary and tell time(she cannot read an analog clock???)

Please stop the passive-aggressive arguing. I don't see the need to dish out any warnings/infractions for what has already been said... but I'd hate to shut the thread down because someone feels the need to get the last word in.
 
maybe my posts aren't showing up????????- you don't need a cell signal, in fact I shut mine off (called airplane mode)- the gps unit will work WITHOUT a signal, combined with the right software you have a digitized 24K:1 topo map with gps capabilities- not too shabby in unit that weighs 4.5 oz and also takes great pictures (and with a cell signal you can even talk to Mom!)

I don't leave my paper map or compass in my truck because I have a "phone", I take the "phone" to augment my compass and map- it's technology, it's good technology- it doesn't replace a map & compass, it compliments it

You will have to explain how this works. Considering that GPS is only an approximate location and that cell positioning is basically a random guess I cannot see how a phone without signal is estimating your position.
 
You will have to explain how this works. Considering that GPS is only an approximate location and that cell positioning is basically a random guess I cannot see how a phone without signal is estimating your position.
most newer "smart phone" have a GPS receiver that works w/o a cell signal (signal is via satellite)- it works exactly like any handheld GPS
take a peek at the Gaiagps website to see how powerful that software is team w/ a "phone" GPS receiver
 
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