A reality check for most makers

I think Mr Gill was referring to the top 50 makers that consistently get mentioned here on this forum. It would be quite easy to identify the top 50 here, however I for one would fine it difficult to even come up with a list 150 overall as there's just so many fine knifemakers out there. If we were just speaking of forgers it would be a little easier.

I believe we tend to think this forum is much more representative of the overall custom knife community than it actually is.

Can someone please define "knife snob" for me? Am I considered a snub just because I only collect "MS" knives? If so, I would challenge that as I collect the knives I do because that's where my main interest lie however I enjoy many maker's knives.
I would actually consider myself far from a "knife snob" considering the time and effort I put in interacting, posting and promoting many maker's knives. Especially promoting and helping new makers.
 
Wow, what a thread. Have to admit I haven't absorbed it all yet.

Recently I had an experience that sort of plays into the "master" thesis. I saw an early Gil Hibbon knife that just absolutely sucked. It's a fairly big Arkansas Toothpick. The thing is asymetrical, fit and finish is poor, choice of materials pretty standard for the 70s when it was probably made - that is to say, 440C, brass and stag. I was embarrassed for Hibbon - but it was probably a reasonably early piece and the standards "back then" were not what they are today. Even so. I've never let a knife out of my house that was as poorly made as that one.

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone starts somewhere, you never know what a maker is going to end up as, and even crap can have 'value' if the maker's skills kick in enough to make him respected later in his career. If he continues his career.

As to criticism, delivery is the key. There's no reason for any critic to come off as superior, except to make himself feel that way. Particularly new makers, justifiably proud of their first, not very well done efforts, might simply leave the forum or worse, quit making. If my early work had been insulted the way some of this sounds I wouldn't still be hanging around BF, and would not have gained what modicum of skills I have from the association. I'm a more accomplished maker and have higher standards because of the kindness and circumpect criticism of other makers in Shop Talk.

There's an old proverb: "To speak kindly does not hurt the tongue."
 
"More than a few high-end knife collections are little more than embarrassing displays of tasteless excess."

Good point. It is true in all areas of collecting. Don't listen to those people's criticism, they have no taste, just money. Knifemakers...take their money with relish. :)

Snob:

(1) One who overtly imitates, obsequiously admires, and offensively seeks to associate only with those one regards as one's superiors and who tends to rebuff or ignore altogether those one regards as one's inferiors: "A snob is someone who judges all things, from shoes and dinner parties to love and beauty, according to their social rating" (Tom Wolfe).
(2) One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect. "Any knife with giraffe bone or brass is not worth collecting or buying, so don't bother making one or buying one."
 
Kevin,

I found this definition on Dictionary.com. I think it is a good one, particularly for our Forum.

I would plead guilty to the first half, and not guilty to the second half.

Snob

a person who believes himself or herself an expert or connoisseur in a given field and is condescending toward or disdainful of those who hold other opinions or have different tastes regarding this field: a knife snob.

And while we are at it...

Connoisseur

a discerning judge of the best in any field: a connoisseur of forged fixed blade knives.

P

For the record: I consider myself to be an expert and connoisseur of American Forged Fixed Blade Knives made during the last 10-15 years. ONLY!
 
joshsmith said:
Here's a novel idea. Maybe there aren't a bunch of snobs out there. Maybe there isn't this conspiracy by the snobs to keep the new guys down. What if 99.9 percent of actual knife collectors/users really are just great people, and when they see a knife that can be improved upon they offer their wise words to help that maker out. And if he so chooses he can say thanks but I like what I make and don't want to change, and more power to that guy. Maybe it's really not that complicated after all.
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Now that's just crazy talk right there. :p

Great post Josh.

Roger
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I'm pretty sure that there would be a lot of disagreement as to who the top 50 makers are. I know that my list would have some different makers than others would have.
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The original poster indicated " the same top 50 makers " so I thought I had missed something. Say you take 20 people and ask each their top 50 , sure 1/2 might be the same but maybe not. Some are collectors , some are users.
So in the end you end up with lets say 250+ makers.

I will say though , that though some discussions lately have got a bit crazy and heated , these are all great discussions and gets everyone thinking.

:thumbup:
 
Tai Goo said:
I don't think some of these elitist collectors are qualified to critique anything. All they do is follow the trends, by blue chip names, and pat each other on the back... who can't do that?

Who can't pick a knife apart,... any knife?
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Word that!
 
I don't give a crap about a knifemakers status with collector's or a knifemakers status amongst other makers. I give less of a crap about a collector's status among other collectors. They do not dictate what I should or should not buy.

To me it comes down to this......

1. Does the knife apeal to me.

2. Will it fit my needs.

3. Will it fit my budget.

I don't care if your an amateur maker with a few minor flaws in his knife or a Mastersmith who is at the top of his game. In the end it comes down to me, the end user and what I like, need, and can afford.
 
Ken C. said:
I don't give a crap about a knifemakers status with collector's or a knifemakers status amongst other makers. I give less of a crap about a collector's status among other collectors. They do not dictate what I should or should not buy.

To me it comes down to this......

1. Does the knife apeal to me.

2. Will it fit my needs.

3. Will it fit my budget.

I don't care if your an amateur maker with a few minor flaws in his knife or a Mastersmith who is at the top of his game. In the end it comes down to me, the end user and what I like, need, and can afford.
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As it should be.
 
I think a good translation of Ken C.'s post is:

The customer is always right.

P
 
I don't often post, most of the time I just read and try to learn. Maybe I am different from many here,maybe not. I have made a few knives using both blanks and grinding my own. Many of my own attempts were thrown away or put to use around the house. I had fun doing them all, hopefully learning from my mistakes, and decent attempts. My skills are not up to the standards many here believe make a good knife. My hope is by continuing to practice they will get better, so far I know this has been the case. I have even sold some knives, usually for less than I have in them , but doing so allows me to continue to learn.
My equipment is primitive to say the least, for what I have I'm proud of the blades I have been able to do. I have added a piece or two to help, and can see where having the right tool for the job certainly helps make it easier.
Currently I send my blades out to have them heat treated, I know I've been the topic of conversation on more than one occasion. Thinking about some of those blades makes my ears still turn red.
Of the knives that I have sold, they have all been good solid working knives. Their owners use them and are happy with them, that makes them a good knife in my book. They are made of good steel ,take and hold a keen edge, are straight, solidly made pieces. The result is I get to continue to learn while being able to maybe buy another piece of equipment. They are not perfect, I've yet to make that, or come close.
One day I hope to have several grinders, heat treat oven, forge, and other tools needed. I don't really expect to ever be more than a part timer-hobby knife maker though. I lack the artistic ability required, I do know quality though, and fellows regardless of who you are, fancy designs, file work, inlays, and scroll work don't necessarily mean quality. Because when you get right down to it, a knife is a tool that was made to cut. The other stuff makes it collectable, and beautiful. How comfortable it works, longevity, and ability to hold an edge make it a knife.
One of these days I'll post a knife here for sale, maybe soon. If someone decides it's worth the meager price I ask then they will get a nice one of a kind carry knife. One they can be proud of and not feel bad about using it, and I'll get to make another knife.
I have several Randall Made knives that I take out and look at from time to time just so I can again see where I am trying to get to.
 
ptgdvc said:
I think a good translation of Ken C.'s post is:

The customer is always right.

P
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No, the customer isn't always right. I've had people ask me to make knives that I knew would not function in the intended manner and after failing to convince them I would refer them to someone who would do as they asked. Usually they come to me asking me to make another knife or to modify the knife they bought from the other maker (which I don't do, I send them back to the maker they bought it from.)

Joss, my comment about making "using" knives doesn't mean I advocate an ugly or utilitarian blade just because it's a "user". I think it's more important that a using knife be elegant and something pleasing to look at BECAUSE it's a user and something the owner will interact with on a regular basis. In practice most people could carry around a box cutter for a daily user, why don't they? because they're ugly and not much fun to use or look at. My "mission statement" so to speak is to make a knife that is as pleasing to the eye as it is to the hand and a knife that when you use it in company will have people asking to see/hold/run away with the knife I made for you. I have a sketchbook full of "not so user" knives but I'm working on developing my skills to the level necessary.

I hope this clarifies my position somewhat.
 
Will,

That sounds good. I like and own user grade knives, and I agree that user doesn't mean ugly. As a collector though I find that I only need one, maybe two pure user grade knives, plus maybe a folder. As a collector, I enjoy looking at many more than just 2 or 3.
 
ptgdvc said:
I think a good translation of Ken C.'s post is:

The customer is always right.

P
Click to expand...

Maybe a better translation would be, "I know what's right for me".
 
Hard Heart:

If they ask for your advice, offer it with kindness. If you have nothing positive to say, then say nothing at all.
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You are 100% wrong.

Having been "solicited" by more than a few makers. I found that early on when asking me for my "opinion" that some merely wanted a "pat on the head".

Ultimately, I made the mistake of giving a "pat on the head" response to a maker who then asked me "Great, how many do you want to buy?"

At that instant I was forced to admit that I was just saying what I thought he wanted to hear. Rightly so he was pissed. He came to me for an honest critique of his knife and I gave him the "Very Nice."

From then on I vowed that when a maker asks me for my opinion, I will tell them exactly what I think. Yes, there are makers who ask me and have difficulty with what I have to say.

More than a couple have said back to me "What do you know". My answer is "YOU must think I know something. Why else would you seek me out and ask me my opinion.

Everyone wants to hear they are doing the right thing, a good job, etc.

The reality for knife makers is the quicker they understand where they need to improve...the quicker they will do so. Saving them time and money, both short and long term.

The same holds too for collectors. The quicker they understand what type of knives, materials and which makers produce those knives...the quicker they will be able to maximize the effect of the dollars they are spending.

The main reason custom knives are not viewed for their investment potential to a large degree is your comment that is in quotation marks.

No matter who you are, maker, collector, dealer, supplier, etc. Your opinion counts.

Now, depending on your position in the entity I call the "Custom Knife Market" some opinions will carry more weight.

This has nothing to do with being a "Snob". It has to that individuals personal experience.

Some brought Bill Moran's "Sole Authorship" style of making. Bill was certainly known for that and is no doubt a legendary figure among knife makers. If you get a chance check out the photos of the knives that Bill submitted for his Master Smith stamp.

Obviously Bill's opinion was sought out by knife makers from all areas. Why, because his opinion carried so much weight with those makers that they took everything he said to heart...as they should have. As Bill would give a knife maker an "honest" critique.

One thing not discussed in this thread (or maybe I missed it).

Responsibility.

Makers, everything good, bad or indifferent that happens with your knives in your "primary" market....is your responsibility.

If you sell out at every show you go to...you are responsible for that.

If you don't sell a single knife....you are responsible for that.

If you get articles, covers and/or win awards....you are responsible.

If you don't, get articles, covers and/or win awards...you are responsible.

Collectors, every knife you buy is 100% your responsibility.

If you sell the knife and you make money...you are responsible for that.

If you sell a knife an lose money...you are responsible for that.

So whether you are a maker, collector or dealer, you are responsible for the knives you make and sell or the knives you buy, sell or trade.

So no matter who you are your opinion counts.

If people think you are a "Snob Collector" then so be it. You took responsibility for your collection and developed it to suit your tastes and "eye". No need to apologize for that.

I keep reading about "Snob Collectors" What about "Snob Makers"? Is that what you call makers who only build very expensive knives?

What about "Snob Dealers" who only sell high end expensive knives?

These collectors, makers and dealers, collect, make and deal in the type of knives that they like. Again, there is no reason for them to apologize or explain themselves to anyone.

If you don't like what a maker is building...don't buy it.

If you think a collector is way off base in what they are collecting...don't buy those knives.

If you don't like what a dealer is offering or you think it is too much money...don't buy those knives.

As the Blade Show approaches, some of these groups will be asking questions to themselves.

Are my knives good enough to sell in that room with all that COMPETITION.

Are my knives good enough to make Journeyman Smith or Master Smith?

Thinking about submitting your knife for one of the Custom Awards at the Blade Show? My advice is bring your "A" game.

That particular room with hundreds of custom knives in it is completely devoid of Kumbaya! The BEST wins.

Collectors will be entering the "University of The After Market" where they will find out if they did their "homework" correctly. Remember if you lose money on a knife you sell...you are responsible for that.

Hard Heart,

During the "3 Days of Enlightenment" that most call the Blade Show. I will receive hundreds of "solicitations" (as will many others) from makers and collectors a like with regards to the knives they are making or Buying/Selling.

There will be no "Kumbaya" the critiques will be accurate and most informative to those who ask.

Some will be happy and some will bad mouth me as they walk away. Regardless of their feelings towards my critique (or any one else they ask) they will know, that from me they got the "Truth".

The Truth is always better than Kumbaya, no matter what form it is conveyed in.

My name is Les Robertson and I take full responsibility for everything I say and do.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Les and I have had our disagreements but Les nailed it. Les and I have our disagreements about the role of the ABS but on this topic I think we are in total agreement. At least I think we are. :) Nice post Les.
 
I wrote: "If they ask for your advice, offer it with kindness. If you have nothing positive to say, then say nothing at all."

Les Robertson said:
You are 100% wrong.
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I'm in agreement with what you wrote, Les. Well said. I probably should have used the word "constructive" rather than "positive," but I meant to put the emphasis on encouragement. If a knifemaker is sincere in asking for your advice, the most positive response you can give may contain some very difficult-to-hear suggestions for improvement, but they can still be delivered in a kind and supportive way. If he gets his feelings hurt because he didn't really want your honest opinion, that's on him. I think we're on the same page.
 
Great post Les - well said. Could we maybe get this replicated in each of the half-dozen concurrent threads on this issue?

Roger
 
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