A Short Rant About Zero Tolerance

[singularity35]

ZT750

Might want to grab one while you can, I am fairly certain they are discontinued.

They are but with this and that, I failed to grab one. Might still be able to, when finances are better.

 

[Bugout Bill]

ZT750

Might want to grab one while you can, I am fairly certain they are discontinued.

That is an interesting little knife. A swayback spring assist. Who'd a thunk it.

 

[benchwarmer380]

Definitely an interesting knife. Fun to play with and with the slight curve to it cuts very well. To me it looked more like a dropped wharncliffe than a hawk bill. Probably the smallest ZT, it is roughly the size of Skyline but with a bit more heft to it. The ergos weren't really off just odd.

Mine didn't get the pocket time a ZT deserves so it has since been traded but its worth a look if you have the funds. She sure did have some sexy curves though.

 

[RevDevil]

Ok, I've read this post and here is my input. Keep in mind, not every opinion that differs from your own is evil. Sometimes it is better to proofread these kinds of threads before hitting "Submit".

THIS IS NOT A ZT HATE THREAD!!!

You sure?

I have nothing to gain by bashing ZT or Kai in general, nor is that my goal. I am not writing this as a means of gaining attention or infamy. Rather, this is simply my opinion about the direction the company seems to be taking and the direction that I wish they would take. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has similar feelings or differing opinions.

Nothing to gain except attention and drawing discord by the way some things are stated. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though.

Compared to some other members of the forum, I am a relative newcomer to the world of knives. I have only been a knife enthusiast for about 3 years now, but in this time I have had the opportunity to try knives from a number of manufacturers, ranging from Spyderco to Benchmade. About a year ago, I noticed a used ZT200 for sale at a local military surplus store. It took me awhile, but I finally pulled the trigger on that wonderful grenade-like knife. I have put that knife through hell, but it has served me very well. That knife also gave me an appreciation for overbuilt tactical knives, and I soon began salivating over ZT’s line up. Unfortunately, other knives piqued my interest, and I never got around to acquiring another ZT. My fascination in their knives never wavered.

No one will fault you from being a new comer, we were all there at one point or another. However, you should maybe try and gain some understanding of basic business practices, so you can better understand decisions made by companies.

This year, however, I began to notice a trend in their products line up. They seemed that they were starting to focus more on very high end folders, rather than the tactical folders that I was used to. They began to eliminate some other products, like autos and fixed blades, as well. While I have no problem with high end folders, some of these knives seemed to be designed with the collector in mind, rather than the user. The ZT 888, 801, 777, and 454 are collector’s knives, not hard use knives. Yes, some people may use these knives (and kudos to them), but the majority will sit unused in display cases. They will hold some value, but they won’t be nearly as valuable as customs. They don’t have extreme cutting geometries like gentleman’s knives should, nor are they as suited for heavy work. These knives have their place, much like Benchmade’s Gold Class, but they shouldn’t displace other, more proven products.

So, by your logic should a company like ZT not make any efforts to grow and improve things? It seems like you just can't wrap your head around that aspect. It's basic business 101 really. You are complaining about folders you don't own because you never had the chance to either buy them or whatever other reason. Some people have a very limited budget, I can understand and respect that completely, others do not have that burden to deal with. Unfortunately, this is where being a novice gets painful but also the learning begins.
Looks can be deceiving. The folders you mention are all able to be users and I'm sure they can perform quite well in that capacity. Remember, you can't take them with you when your gone. Your assumption about how many knives will end up "sitting unused in display cases", doesn't matter. It's no more my business what you do with your knives than it is your business what I do with mine. Don't worry about "everyone else's knives", worry about your own.
Thomas has mentioned in the past, as well as Sal Glesser (Spyderco) when knives do not sell as they are projected, the production stops and other products are brought in. Again, you can't have a factory producing things that people will not buy or will not order. There is too much on the line, employees need to get paid, designers need to be paid, there are a lot of expenses incurred that neither you nor I know about.

I think I have complained enough, but this is an outline of what I wish ZT would do:

It would be great if companies could just stop the bus and make a complete U turn every time a bright idea hit them. Unfortunately it's not so simple Bill.

• Get rid of the art knives. Either create a Gold Class equivalent in ZT or sell them as Kershaws, but go back to producing tactical knives.

Variety is what sells knives, just as much as innovation. Look at the sprint run Paramilitary 2, Manix2, Military. Same knife, different steels, G10, and colors. They sell in record time. So, ZT should not be allowed to participate in taking a chance to make some money from that market? They should simply "know their role" and stay in the kitchen? You have to try and understand business here Bill. People don't work for free.

• Stop offering so many finishes for the same knife, stick to either stonewash or DLC.

If you don't like a knife, don't buy it and find something to buy that you do like. Again, limiting the offerings in such as way as you are suggesting is not a healthy business model in this case. Innovation is what gains customers and sells knives, if it weren't true we'd all be carrying around an Obsidian knife with a wooden handle.

• Don’t overcomplicate blade steel. Why the hell does KAI do composite blades? I’d rather pay a little extra for a full S110V or ZDP-189 blade that can be run to full hardness than for a composite.

I will agree with you on this to some extent. I'd much rather have a high performing pricey knife instead of a pretty expensive knife.

• Bring back older offerings, like the MUDD or autos.

This is a bit of a long story and is a little more complicated than you think it is. Collaborations cost money, and really big money depending on the designer. Automatics can be more trouble than they are worth and are still illegal in many more places than where they are legal. They present unique warranty issues and legal liabilities that some folks would rather avoid all together.

• Bring in new designers. As much as I like Rick Hinderer, RJ Martin, and Ken Onion’s work, I wouldn’t mind seeing some new designers. More Strider collaborations? Maybe bring in Ernest Emerson? Or Bob Terzuola? (a man can dream of mine)

Again, we're talking big bucks. There are commitments, contractual obligations, and other things that people involved must contend with. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. The inhouse designers are doing quite well in my opinion. RJ Martin is one of the best and most innovative custom knifemakers in the world. Rick Hinderer is also an incredible knifemaker that has decades of experience under his belt. Some of the other folks you mention already have contracts with other organizations. Just because you want Kobe to play with the MIami Heat really bad, doesn't mean it's as easy and dropping him off at the airport.

Anyway, rant over. Thanks for letting me waste your time, input would be appreciated.

As already stated, you are a newbie here. There is almost 15 years worth of information in this forum alone. There are tonsof details that you have yet to learn about. They are in the forums underneath tons of new threads and posts, but they are there for the reading. Try reading the archives and you will answer a lot of your own questions.

 

[goodeyesniper]

not much to not understand. they went from "hard use" marketing (which I feel is one of the biggest jokes in modern cutlery), to collector marketing.

a company has to evolve to stay alive generally. can't blame them. and I respect the he'll out of them.

I just think overly thick knives with ridiculous jimping are solutions to problems that don't exist. even my favorite knife company does it, though. you pretty much have to in this day of YouTube knife "users" skewing reality.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Snip

I honestly did not start this thread to bash ZT. It was more intended as constructive, albeit highly unrealistic criticism. I didn't want to sow any discord, and I'm sorry if it came across like that. I never said anyone else's opinion was evil, either.

Anyway, much of your criticism is valid. That being said, I feel I should clarify my points some more:

1. My criticism of their limited edition knives (0454, 777, etc) was a little too harsh. It almost seems that their limited edition knives seem to make up a disproportionate amount of their product catalog. Their workhorse knives seem to get less attention than they deserve.

2. Benchmade, for the most part, offers satin and coated. Same for spyderco. They both seem to be doing ok.

3. Many other companies (smaller than Kai) make autos, auto laws are slowly changing.

This is a pain to write on a phone, so my answers are kind of sparse. Sorry.

 

[Bugout Bill]

not much to not understand. they went from "hard use" marketing (which I feel is one of the biggest jokes in modern cutlery), to collector marketing.

a company has to evolve to stay alive generally. can't blame them. and I respect the he'll out of them.

I just think overly thick knives with ridiculous jimping are solutions to problems that don't exist. even my favorite knife company does it, though. you pretty much have to in this day of YouTube knife "users" skewing reality.

Hard use knives have their place. A zt200 digs a lot better than a Griptillian.

 

[5.56]

This is one of the best production knife companies right now. You get high end products and the best warranty available. And then, they still make the majority of their product domestically.

What am I missing? I guess haters gonna hate.

 

[Twindog]

I'm more of a Spyderco/Benchmade buyer, but I have a couple 0560s that I like a lot. The early ZTs didn't interest me, but the company is clearly pushing limits and trying new things. Good on Kai.

I'd like to see ZT keep on innovating. The company has good ideas and the quality is extremely good.

But who really cares? The market is chock-a-block full with amazing knives from many makers and many new steels are available. It's really a buyer's market. I can't imagine anyone not being able to find a knife in today's market that won't rock their socks.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

That ZT 750 is a tribute to the old Kershaw Talon. What a great knife. ATS-34, titanium slabs over steel liners. One model had a bottle opener on the top of the blade that preceded the Emerson Wave.

The Starkey Ridge was a sister model to the Talon, with a straight blade, and a jimped tang that allowed opening by "rolling" the blade out.

Kershaw has been an industry leader for a long time.

 

[jwblack911]

I think ZT is taking the company in the direction of the current overall knife market. Currently i see flippers, cf, ti and semi exotic blade steel designs in high demand. And ZT has done a great job with their new line up. And if i had to guess i would assume they will continue on the path they are on until the demand in the market changes or shifts to something else and they will supply the new demand. But right now what they are producing is top notch.

All in all ZT is still my favorite production company. I have all the "perfect edc knife" that everyone has... but after they have been carried a week its back to the 0300, 0400, and the 0200 for me.

 

[JuJu-]

As for new designers, aren't Sinkevich (0454) and Rexford (0801) new?

 

[Buddyleet]

Just had a beautiful flick with my 0550. Is there anything else worthy in this thread?

 

[Murky Depth]

I can kind of feel for the part of the OP's rant about ZT targeting the high-end market. However, if you look at the entire ZT lineup, they do have a little something for the full range of budgets. I agree with you on the 0200 spoiling us, though. I am yet to find its level of perfection in fit & finish in anything under about 400 bucks. I have the stonewashed version of the 0200, and it's just a flawlessly finished knife. IMO, it's perfection in a tactical folder, and at only 120 bucks!!!!!!:

http://kershawguy.com/products-page/zt-new/zt0200kw-stonewashed-blade-nib/

 

[Ken44]

I have nothing to gain by bashing ZT or Kai in general, nor is that my goal. I am not writing this as a means of gaining attention or infamy. Rather, this is simply my opinion about the direction the company seems to be taking and the direction that I wish they would take.

I believe you, and there is nothing wrong with your post as you did say it is simply your opinion about what you wish.


Though I do disagree with you and feel ZT is heading in the right direction in terms of products. I don't buy them myself, but I know the people that do buy them love the LE models, just as I do with the brands I buy. They're hard to get, so that alone tells you they are doing the right thing in making the LE's since people want them. And they still make plenty of the plain models, so just stick with those. Its a good thing when a company has variety.

 

[vector12]

I dig ZT's.

Their models, we don't have all the good info, like sales #'s, they have some good sellers. I'd wager they can spot a trend before me!!!!! I've been flipping the ZT801 a lot lately, it will cut 550 and fuel tubbing all day long, and can't wait for the CF version to pop out, and I have my fingers crossed that my preorder of the 0777 M390 DLC comes through.

I buy other brands too, lots of Blades for many uses out there, KAI, keep them coming.

 

[Bugout Bill]

I can kind of feel for the part of the OP's rant about ZT targeting the high-end market. However, if you look at the entire ZT lineup, they do have a little something for the full range of budgets. I agree with you on the 0200 spoiling us, though. I am yet to find its level of perfection in fit & finish in anything under about 400 bucks. I have the stonewashed version of the 0200, and it's just a flawlessly finished knife. IMO, it's perfection in a tactical folder, and at only 120 bucks!!!!!!:
http://kershawguy.com/products-page/zt-new/zt0200kw-stonewashed-blade-nib/

Oh, yours has a point. I'm jealous. The Russian guy who owned mine previously rounded it off a bit. Very nice knife btw.

 

[benchwarmer380]

I think ZT is taking the company in the direction of the current overall knife market.

I have to agree with this. They do seem to have an understanding of what their customer want.

Thanks for the history lesson Esav, I did not know that! :thumbup:

 

[Murky Depth]

Oh, yours has a point. I'm jealous. The Russian guy who owned mine previously rounded it off a bit. Very nice knife btw.

Those pics were actually taken by Kershawguy, so I linked back to his site.

I have a DLC 0200 as well as the stonewashed version that was originally made to be exclusive for Knifeworks. Both are just anomalies of perfection in production knives - they are even more perfectly executed than the customs I've owned & handled (the little that I have).

 

[NeilB]

I'm pretty sure it's still OK here in America to have a discussion about what we, the consumer, think a company ought to produce and why--we are, after all, the sole reason for their existence.

We all have our preferences. Some people already have their preferences catered to, others don't. A few used to have their preferences met, but now don't. I think that's worth some conversation and I don't believe that equates to "hating". Seriously, if this meets your bar for hating on something, you've never seen hate.

I understand that some people get their personal identities so entwined with a corporation that they feel anything that isn't praise of their company is somehow a personal attack on them and they feel compelled to counter-attack, like a Yankees fan after someone has expressed a preference for the Braves. I think that's a sad commentary on where we are as a society.

Does ZT suck? No, nor is that what the OP said. He said something very different.

Can ZT do better? Sure. But, so much depends on exactly how we define "better". Better for me might not be better for you. I.e., the guys who love the limited edition knives in exotic steels by high profile designers might be getting their strokes right now, but to provide that, given the fact (not opinion) of finite resources in any firm, the focus has to come off of the more pedestrian "hard use tactical" folders that other people might prefer. I get that. It's not personal in any way, nor is commenting on the current state of play. Were I KAI, I'd be paying attention to what my enthusiasts here have to say and bounce that off my bulk marketing data in hopes of seeing an early trend emerge so I could get in front of it, an increasingly difficult task without a doubt given the lead times linked to play of the seasons in the marketing and selling channels. I know, TL;DR.

Personnally, I don't care what ZT does in the future. I like knives. I collect knives to some minor extent, and I have a passion for high quality gear, including knives. ZT is only one vendor in my universe, and frankly, there are only so many big, heavy folders I can carry around. I'm a user.

Enter the real collector. He's up for all manner of variations on a theme, because to him, it isn't the knife, it's the search, it's the acquisition, it's the collection, it's completeness. I get that sometimes it's about comparing the stats and I'm OK with that, too. I compare the data on various knives, too. That makes sense to me. Collect the stuff you think is cool. What's not to love about that?

So, I'm going to be fine no matter what KAI/ZT decide to do. That said, I like ZT. I like their knives. I have one in my pocket as I'm typing this (0561). And I even have a few of their LE knives because of one reason or another. But, I think it's a bit unfair to classify a constructive opinion (constructive because he offered a plan for improvement) as "hating" simply because it wasn't a typical fan-boy fluff post. I had thought better of this forum. And I am morally certain I will now be invited to leave if I don't like it here. It's all part and parcel of the same phenomenon.